Why is it so hard to create a bootable USB for Mac Sonoma?

warmtone wrote:

Matti er yes both Macs use Clean MyMacX and Intego for virus protection.

Since the MacBook M3 produced the Sonoma boot USB successfully with these 3rd party apps running I can only assume they are not the problem.

Others have already explained why those utilities are problematic for Macs. Anti-virus software is like taking medications for a disease that you are already immune to ... all you can get is side effects from the medications but no value added. Clean My Mac is more insidious because it presents the user with opportunities to delete or move files, and users can delete or change files that when absent or modified, interfere with the interface between the user and the MacOS, hence leading to anomalies. In many case Macs that experience obscure issues can be traced to Clean My Mac.

The fact that two different Macs with Clean My Mac act differently can reflect the fact that different users interact with their computers and these programs differently. Even completely uninstalling these softwares does not necessarily restore files that were modified or deleted so the symptoms can continue.

At this point, no one can prove that anti-virus or Clean My Mac caused you any harm, it's impossible to recreate the sequence of events.

If you are looking to cleanly install Sonoma, you can consider this:

Follow Apple's instructions in What to do before you sell, give away, trade in, or recycle your Mac - Apple Support

This involves completely wiping the drive so be sure to have at least two verified backups, such as Time Machine or reliable "clones," completed and ready. After completely wiping the drive, it will start up as a new computer, and will ask if you wish to migrate users and files from a backup. Say yes and connect your backup, but specify that it only migrate (restore) accounts and user files, no applications or anything else. Then log in as you had before (your user account will be migrated) and update the MacOS to the latest version, before installing anything. Then check that the Mac starts up quickly and operates properly. Then install your third party software one or two at a time, checking for proper operation after each install. Leave anti-virus and Clean My Mac for last -- I, like the others, strongly recommend against them but if you must, install them last and recheck that the symptoms have not returned.

I find the clean disk reformat and new MacOS install to be easier than use of a USB drive as you have been trying to do. There are fewer steps and fewer things to get wrong or mixed up doing.

warmtone wrote:

I just noted the advice from Apple re USB stick creation was based on an older OS - do we need a different terminal command if using Sonoma to create the disk??

Can you explain what you mean. There has not been a change except a small change after Sierra. Apple provides the specific commands for each OS version. For the most part, the only difference is the name of the OS.

16GB may be too small for Sonoma, but I’ve always used larger drives.

I don’t know why you are seeking opinions on how to format. Apple specifically states it should be Mac OS Extended. I’m not sure why as it gets formatted when it is created.

I think the error you got is because Terminal doesn’t have Full Disk Access.

Open System Settings, Privacy & Security, and add Terminal to Full Disk Access. Apple doesn’t provide that in the instructions, but it seems necessary.

> why the same approach on the Mac Studio did not work

Have you used any 3rd party virus apps (Avast, AVG, Bitdefender, Intego, MacAfee, Norton, ESET NOD32, Trusteer etc) or "cleaning", "optimizing", "speed-up" apps (CleanMyMac, MacKeeper etc) apps on that Mac? They often produce this kind of obscure errors and are not recommended nor needed.

> Clean MyMacX and Intego for virus protection [...] I can only assume they are not the problem

Those apps are regarded as malware themselves. I'd uninstall them. Sometimes a clean install is the only way to fix the damage they have caused.

I use Clean MyMacX for general housekeeping - Intego for virus protection.

Both seem to do a good job..........

So far I cannot report any obvious issues but these days it pays to be cautious!

What, exactly, has Intego done for you? Does it periodically present you with false positives to make you think it is providing some service to you? Has it actually found any viruses on your Mac (not false positives, but an actual virus--how about any other malware.) Has it ever prevented you from installing adware?

On the housekeeping part, never in over 30 years using a Mac have I ever done any "housekeeping" whatsoever and have never experienced any problems.

Essentially, both types of programs provide no actual service, but have cause irreparable damage to others who have used them.

Suggest one does Not Assume for either or both mentioned Applications

This will include CleanMyMac , aka “ BrickMyMac “

Intego AntiVirus

Intego Anti-virus and CleanMyMac - Apple Community

Specific to CleanMyMac aka “ BrickMyMac “

To put the CleanMyMac in context and the damages it may have or has already done.

This application can or will Muck Up your User Account ( Home Folder ) of this machine.

It does not touch the Operating System itself unless you consider your User Account ( Home Folder ) as part of the Operating System

Then in that specific context - it has Mucked Up the Operating  System 

warmtone wrote:

Matti, is there clear evidence these apps are malware?

I use Clean MyMacX for general housekeeping - Intego for virus protection.

Both seem to do a good job..........

So far I cannot report any obvious issues but these days it pays to be cautious!

I await your advice and if there is clear evidence I will install immediately

Part 1 of 2

There are no known Windows-like Viruses in the wild that self replicate and affect macOS, because of the underling UNIX  Foundation and Permission Limitation. 

The Operating System resides in a Sealed and Read Only Volume that cannot be opened by the User nor by Third Party Applications.

Part 2 of 2



Any Third Party Applications that will interfere with the normal operation of the OS,  is an invitation for disaster. 

Certain Applications maybe available on the Apple Apps Store - this only means the Developer is prepared to pay Apple a percentage on each sale. 

What the Application may do to the computer is up to the User to check this out before purchase

Any of the below should be removed as per Developers Instructions 

Disk Cleaner 

This will include CleanMyMac , aka “ BrickMyMac “

warmtone wrote:

I solved the USB problem by using my wife's MacBook Pro M3 running Sonoma.

I downloaded the Sonoma App and used exactly the same USB stick, same configuration and terminal command I had used previously. No issues - the transfer of the Sonoma app to the USB proceeded seamlessly.

I would still like to know why the same approach on the Mac Studio did not work.

I have ensured the terminal has full disk access.

What is different between the two, software-wise? Specifically system modifications?

The problem with any of the “cleaner” apps is that unless you are paying close attention to what they want to clean/delete you may wind up with a non-functioning app or Mac because a crucial file was deleted. It happens a lot.

Longtime volunteers here will never recommend cleaner apps or anti-virus packages because of the damage we have seen take place over many years to many users.