Posts:
125
From:
Earth
Registered:
Oct 3, 2007
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 2:25 AM
in response to: Bob Lyons
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No printed manual is just ridicilous, plus it encourages piracy. I like to read the huge bulky paper version of the Logic 8 manual. It makes me feel smart. Like a college professor.
MBP SR 2.2
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
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Posts:
143
From:
Richmond, VA
Registered:
Jun 15, 2006
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 2:38 AM
in response to: Gregory Hendricks
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I just gave them the following feedback, thought you might like to see it. One thing I completely forgot about was new users of Logic. Can you imagine having to learn Logic via Apple Help/HTML?!?? Talk about tough love, wow. Good luck gaining market share if all your pro apps contain that kind of help!
Apple and Logic feedback listeners --
I've been a user of Logic since version 4 ("Platinum"). And while I've loved the printed manuals, I do realize that their time is past. Ever since version 7 I've started using the PDF versions more and more, until with version 8 I barely had to open the physical manual.
I'm here to register my extreme displeasure that there is no PDF of the reference manuals with the latest version of Logic.
If you expect your professional users to rely on the Apple "Help" menu, they will become frustrated, angry and upset. While there is an ability within help to search and print, it is both slow and painful.
My main beef is that you cannot go back to the pages you were on when you closed the Apple "Help" application -- and this is essential to how I learn! You have to search it all out again -- you cannot save searches, either or bookmark pages to return to, i.e. the "reference" part of "reference manuals" is missing here. Again, did I mention that this is ESSENTIAL to how I learn?
I'm hoping that this is a gross oversight, and that something as critical as a PDF reference manual might be something you simply didn't quite have ready when the product shipped.
I am enjoying the new version, and would love to explore the new tools and features more in depth, but you see again, it's very difficult to learn this stuff with outdated tools. Do not take this personally, but I equate "Apple Help" with "Hypercard". Breathtaking technology for 1991, but a little outdated by now.
I realize that many users of Logic 9 will likely be coming to the product from Logic 8, and that that version contained PDFs of both manuals. And for those users, 90% of the product remains the same. If you are hoping to pick up more users unfamiliar with Logic before version 9, they will be extremely angry at not being able to have access to fully searchable, savable PDF versions of the manual. I would dread learning Logic via Apple Help or via HTML pages.
Please, Apple -- listen to your professional users. Offer us a PDF version of the manuals.
Macbook Pro
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
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Posts:
251
Registered:
Aug 20, 2006
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 8:40 AM
in response to: extensivegroup
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Another upset customer here I am afraid.
First upset there is no printed documentation and then extremely upset at no PDF files.
The help system runs like an absolute dog on my MacPro, I actually get the beach ball when changing topics sometimes!
Also the level of detail in the help system is no where near the level they had in the version 8 manuals.
How the **** you are meant to get on with this unless you had used Logic 8 I have no idea.
Unbelievable!
MacPro and MacBookPro
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
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Posts:
143
From:
Richmond, VA
Registered:
Jun 15, 2006
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 9:26 AM
in response to: extensivegroup
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An FYI -- I've currently posted a query to the Final Cut Pro discussions to see if the recent update to that application also lacks PDF documentation. I'll let you know what is said there.
This will be horrible for new users coming to these apps for the first time.
G5 dual 2.0
Mac OS X (10.4.8)
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Posts:
453
From:
San Francisco, CA
Registered:
Jun 3, 2005
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 11:08 AM
in response to: AndrewCapon
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The help system runs like an absolute dog on my MacPro...
This is by no means a solution to the "no PDF" issue, but as an alternative to the Apple Help system, you can open up your browser and enter this URL to access the manual:
file:///Applications/Logic%20Pro.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj/logicpro_help/index.html
No search, which makes looking up topics a chore, but you can bookmark pages using the Web browser's bookmarks feature.
-droo
8-Core 3GHz
Mac OS X (10.5.5)
Digi003 Rack, Avalon VT-737SP preamp, UAD Stuff, Focusrite LiquidMix
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Posts:
251
Registered:
Aug 20, 2006
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 11:35 AM
in response to: Andrew Tokuda
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Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the info.
Cheers
Andy
MacPro and MacBookPro
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
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Posts:
6,772
Registered:
Jul 11, 2005
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 11:41 AM
in response to: Andrew Tokuda
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Workarounds are great, but we shouldn't be forced to work around such a fundamental aspect of any complicated, diverse thing: traditional forms of documentation.
It beggars belief that both hardcopy AND .pdf of the user manual (at the very least) are not included with the purchase of this software. I can only hope that expressions of outrage over this issue will be duly noted by the powers-that-be, and that they won't mistake the sheer popularity of Logic 9 (vis a vis volume of sales) as an implicit endorsement by said customers to the absence of proper, traditional documentation.
PPC Quad, L8.0.2/9.0.0, RME FF800, McMix, blah blah blah
Mac OS X (10.4.9)
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Posts:
143
From:
Richmond, VA
Registered:
Jun 15, 2006
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 11:51 AM
in response to: iSchwartz
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, iSchwartz! I'm only hoping that Apple takes note of how many people share your disgust.
BTW, I still haven't heard back from anyone in the Final Cut Pro forum regarding whether or not they are forced to use the same system, but if so it's an outrage.
Macbook Pro C2D 2.16
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
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Posts:
7,514
Registered:
Dec 12, 2005
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 11:55 AM
in response to: extensivegroup
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Final Cut Studio 3 has exactly the same documentation format as Logic Studio 2.0 - no PDF manual, and the oh so lovely Apple Help Viewer HTML main manual.
Sorry to say 
Rosebook Pro, Logic Studio 2.0, SD3, AMT8, MCU, LCXmu, Keymap
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
Yeah baby!
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Posts:
77
From:
San Antonio, TX
Registered:
Oct 16, 2003
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 11:58 AM
in response to: Andrew Tokuda
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Thanks Droo. Well, it's at least something to note that the "manual" is available offline. I'm thinking of how quickly I can search in Preview in the PDF manual. I type in a few letters and the various applicable pages begin appearing. Why oh why would Apple think this is a good idea?
Mac Pro 2.8GHz Quad; MacBook; Mac Mini G4; Airport Express; 5G/6G iPods
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
Logic Studio; Powerbook G4 15-inch
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Posts:
2,628
Registered:
Jun 3, 2005
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 11:59 AM
in response to: extensivegroup
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It's hard to believe they would do something this out of touch.
I wonder how hard it would be to come up with a script or other way of combining all the HTML files in order and then exporting as PDF?
Power Mac G5 quad 2.5 and Mini duo 1.66
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
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Posts:
143
From:
Richmond, VA
Registered:
Jun 15, 2006
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 11:59 AM
in response to: Bee Jay
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Despite that bad news, I'm glad we're not alone here.
The more folks who find this unacceptable, the better.
What was Apple thinking?
Macbook Pro C2D 2.16
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
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Posts:
7,514
Registered:
Dec 12, 2005
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 12:02 PM
in response to: Mike Connelly
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Remembering of course to click on all the "folded" headings on each page so they unfold to show their content...
But yes, you could do this, but it's still nowhere near as nice as a properly print-formatted nicely-laid out PDF..
Rosebook Pro, Logic Studio 2.0, SD3, AMT8, MCU, LCXmu, Keymap
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
I Want My PDF..!
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Posts:
7,514
Registered:
Dec 12, 2005
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Re: Documentation rant (slightly) -- no user manual in PDF?!?
Posted:
Jul 27, 2009 12:06 PM
in response to: extensivegroup
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What was Apple thinking?
"We want to be environmentally friendly. Most people probably use the computer-based manuals rather than the printed ones, the printed ones go out of date regularly, are massive, heavy and require large boxes and expensive print/paper runs, therefore expensive and wasteful shipping. Therefore, we do away with printed manuals.
Now that we are no longer doing printed manuals, why pay for someone to design and lay out the manual as if it was going to be a printed one? We can just go for an HTML format, which is far easier to maintain, plus we can automatically display any updated pages with an internet connection - saves even more money. Done."
Something along those lines, I'd bet...
Rosebook Pro, Logic Studio 2.0, SD3, AMT8, MCU, LCXmu, Keymap
Mac OS X (10.5.7)
I Want My PDF..!
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