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Sep 14, 2008 3:41 PM
by: roguemodron
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Posts:
5
Registered:
Jan 1, 2008
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Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 8, 2008 7:36 PM
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I have a Macbook Pro with an 8600m GT graphics card that is a couple of months past the end of its warranty, this is a question out there for legal buffs, or other people in the know, are Apple obliged to extend the warranties on the affected laptops as they have sold inherently flawed machines?
To me it would seem to be a requirement for any company that sells a product that WILL fail to replace any product with issues free of charge.
Am I just being overoptimistic? Charging $1000+ (and god knows what in Pounds here in Britain) to change the logic board on a laptop that was doomed to failure sounds like it must contravene some law protecting purchasers.
Anyone have any ideas? I'm very worried about the prospect of shelling out an outrageous amount of money to have my already very expensive laptop repaired.
PS: To those who say purchase Applecare, I expect any product I purchase from Apple to outlast without issue its 1 year warranty, and even a 3 year extended warranty. I would not consider inherently flawed hardware a reason to pay to have that which is bound to fail repaired, surely if you are sold a product that is flawed in its very creation, it should be repaired free of charge?
Thanks, may Apple smile upon all with 8600m GT graphics cards!
Macbook Pro 2.4
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
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Posts:
143
From:
Colorado USA
Registered:
Apr 8, 2007
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 8, 2008 8:54 PM
in response to: rickydiculous
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Hi rickydiculous,
I would hope that Apple would extend the warranty on affected products, as nVidia has already "stepped up" to pay the bill. However, there are a couple of issues at play here, one is that Dell did not change the warranty for the affected notebooks, but just released a driver update to prolong the life of the chips. They have also stated that notebooks that currently have failing graphic cards will be fixed, but the driver fix seems to be their way to get the warranty to expire before a fix is required. The other issue at play here, is that Apple has not indicated that any model of the MacBook Pros are among the affected notebooks. If you are experiencing any issues with the graphic card, you might want to call Apple Customer Care and see what they say.
MacBook Pro (Early 2008)
Mac OS X (10.5.2)
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Posts:
58
Registered:
Apr 30, 2005
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 9, 2008 12:45 PM
in response to: LinkRS
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Hi -
My MBPro failed on Thursday night with the Nvidia chip dying. It was 3 weeks out of warranty.
Took it to the Apple Store on Regent Street this afternoon, and after describing the problem, he examined the computer, saw that it was out of warranty and went over to talk to his manager. He came back and said they could cover it at their expense.
He said the reason they were covering it was because that the computer was otherwise in perfect condition.
So - they will fix this now, if all the right pieces fall into place for them.
MB Pro 2.4
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
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Posts:
7,756
From:
Hurstbridge, Australia
Registered:
Oct 8, 2000
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 9, 2008 2:31 PM
in response to: rickydiculous
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What makes you assume that your graphics card is "doomed to failure", rickydiculous? The "Inquirer" beat up and the strange flood of new "single post" references to it here from new arrivals?
I'm in the middle of a quick survey of real MBP owners that I know. (So far it covers around 50 MBPs). Not a single one of them has suffered a graphics card problem.
Cheers
Rod
MBP15"2.2, iMacG520"RevB , MB2CD, MBCD, ,PB12"867, iMacDV+,PM5400/180 & earlier
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
5 chooks, 2 dogs, 2 daughters, 1 pear tree, 0 partridges, itinerant bats, magpie
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Posts:
94
From:
U.S.A.
Registered:
Dec 17, 2007
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 9, 2008 2:34 PM
in response to: rickydiculous
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I spoke to an Apple employee about this issue. My MacBook Pro has one of the 8600 GT cards, and though it has never shown any signs of failing, I was curious about what would happen if these cards proved to be defective. My MacBook has around 2 years or so of AppleCare left, so I shouldn't have to worry. I think the employee suggested that covered machines will be taken care of. For out-of-warranty Macs, who knows? The thing is, Apple is not responsible for this; NVIDIA is. One problem with this is that the graphics cards are soldered to the logic boards in the MacBooks. You would basically have to replace the whole Mac if Apple issues a recall on behalf of NVIDIA. This could be good or bad depending on the way you look at it. For me, I have a fully functional MacBook Pro. It's not the latest model, but it works great for me, and I would rather not go through any return hassles, etc. On the other hand, you could theoretically get an even newer model with the latest technology. Thanks to Leopard, all of my important data is backed up, so it just depends.
Apple will most likely repair or replace damaged/defective Macs if NVIDIA declares that the 8400 and 8600 cards are indeed problematic. Time will tell. The NVIDIA 8600 GT packs a punch though. I plugged my MBP into my 47-inch HDTV and the picture looks great, although the color does not match the built-in display perfectly.  We shall see how this plays out. Personally, I like NVIDIA cards. They perform well when they work. I've never had any issues with them. I would believe that this is the same for the majority of MBP owners.
-MacUser
2.4Ghz MBP, 1Ghz iMac G4
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
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Posts:
16
Registered:
Feb 14, 2006
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 10, 2008 5:48 AM
in response to: ARealMac(PPC)User
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If you bought a Mac then Apple is responsible regardless of who the supplier is.
If you bought a Ford and the fuel tank exploded then your relationship is with Ford, no matter who built the fuel tank. It is up to Ford to seek compensation from the fuel tank supplier. If you suffer damage as a result, again, Ford is the culprit.
When companies buy goods from other providers they take responsibility for making sure that the components work. If the components fail, they are responsible for fixing or compensating their customers.
The problem is Apple seldom comes clean with its customers or suppliers when there are problems with its products or services. Instead, it pretends the issue doesn't exist until it's plain that there's no way it can hide from it any more.
MBP
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
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Posts:
94
From:
U.S.A.
Registered:
Dec 17, 2007
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 10, 2008 1:08 PM
in response to: Nathan Cochrane
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True, but NVIDIA may or may not have told its customers about the defective cards early on. Only now, after many different machines have been sold using NVIDIA cards do we now hear about this issue.
Apple deals with both ATI and NVIDIA. Surely they did not place orders for the said cards knowing they were poorly designed. They will most likely recall affected MacBook Pros should it be deemed necessary. The relationship is with Apple because this Apple deals with the end users. From my experience, Apple tries to fix things before admitting to any problems. Thing is, they tend to fix the problem. This will be dealt with in time.
We still do not know if all of the 8400 and 8600 GT cards are affected. NVIDIA has not revealed this yet, as far as I know. My 8600 performs well, as many others do. Some have failed or are failing, but those things can happen. We shall see where this goes.
-MacUser
2.4Ghz MBP, 1Ghz iMac G4
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
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Posts:
6
Registered:
Dec 5, 2007
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 10, 2008 1:20 PM
in response to: Rod Hagen
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Rod, here's the thing. The reason people are just "showing up" and complaining isn't some kind of smear campaign against Apple as you seem to believe. The majority of us don't spend our time on Apple's support boards unless we have a problem.
So no, it's not "strange", and we aren't saying that it's more than 1 in 50 odds. If one in two hundred MacBook Pros will die, that's a systemic problem. One in one thousand is also unacceptable, especially when it's a design problem.
You've got a lot of work, by the way, before you make it to top users. Keep up the good work!
MacBook Pro 15"
Mac OS X (10.5.1)
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Posts:
7,756
From:
Hurstbridge, Australia
Registered:
Oct 8, 2000
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 10, 2008 3:20 PM
in response to: hovering barns
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I'm sure that is the case in some cases, hovering barn, as I've endeavoured to make clear in most of my posts on the matter.
For a few days here however, there was a very different pattern , that involved a sudden rush of new posters, all essentially making "me too" posts that simply didn't "fit" the profile of people looking for help with a new problem.
You say "we aren't saying that it's more than 1 in 50 odds. If one in two hundred MacBook Pros will die, that's a systemic problem. One in one thousand is also unacceptable, especially when it's a design problem."
Firstly many people ARE claiming , with no evidence beyond the Inquirer article, that this is a universal problem, not limited to 1 in 50 or 1 in a thousand odds.
Secondly, a one in a thousand failure rate is something that I suspect computer manufacturers would only hope for in their wildest dreams. Even the most reliable computers (including Apple) usually come in at around 95% freedom from defects in consumer surveys. That's why they need to provide warranty repair services! Would you seriously suggest that all MBPs should be recalled (as some have been) if the failure rate was, say, 1 in 100? If this was the rate I suspect the 99 who didn't have a problem would be more than a little annoyed! This is one reason why companies often offer "extended repair" periods instead of undertaking recalls. Recalling everything is not only very expensive, it causes people a lot of unnecessary inconvenience if it is not really needed in their case.
As for it being a "design" problem, I thought, quite to the contrary, people were claiming that it was a "component" problem.
Cheers
Rod
MBP15"2.2, iMacG520"RevB , MB2CD, MBCD, ,PB12"867, iMacDV+,PM5400/180 & earlier
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
5 chooks, 2 dogs, 2 daughters, 1 pear tree, 0 partridges, itinerant bats, magpie
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Posts:
94
From:
U.S.A.
Registered:
Dec 17, 2007
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 10, 2008 5:19 PM
in response to: Rod Hagen
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I have to agree. A lot of users do not even understand the problem here. So a few sources "claim" to know that certain graphics cards are doomed to fail. None of the major manufacturers have truly acknowledged this, and from what I hear, most MBP users are very, very satisfied. My MacBook? It performs exceptionally well. HD content and many other things look great. I have had one MBP replaced so far, but since then, I haven't had any problems. And that wasn't even a graphics issue. Aside from my own experiences, not once have I heard anyone complain about their MBP. Never.
Some GPUs have failed, but how can anyone determine that this has something to do with NVIDIA's "faulty manufacturing process"? There is really little to none evidence that would point to it. MacBook Pros have a few exterior design problems in my opinion, but this does not affect the graphics cards in any way. Many users are quick to believe that this is a universal problem, as you say, because similar rumors are circulating the web thanks to The Inquirer and other sites. Perhaps they want to believe that "it's not just me!". Until NVIDIA, Apple, or other computer manufacturers confirm this for us, we can't tell if there is a real problem or not.
-MacUser
2.4Ghz MBP, 1Ghz iMac G4
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
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Posts:
138
Registered:
Mar 31, 2005
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 10, 2008 6:08 PM
in response to: rickydiculous
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hi,
i am NOT a lawyer, but generally speaking manufactures have a responsibility to repair products if they are defective - even in some cases if they are out of warranty. much of this depends on the consumer protection laws in your particular country. in some of the cases that i have looked at, the court has ordered that the computer maker repair the defective unit and/or compensate users who paid for the repairs out of their own pockets.
a number of years ago, one of my macs failed because of a know defect - in fact there was a recall in the US because of the defect. i was not in the US and there was no recall at that time where i lived, however, I did some research and found out about the recall and got apple to fix my computer based on this (all i did is talk to customer relations), even though it was out of warranty. over all i found apple very helpful.
at any rate, if it turns out that there is an issue with the nvidia chips i am sure apple will help out its customers.
regards,
polisciguy
iBook G4 800Mhz/MacBook Pro 2.2 Ghz
Mac OS X (10.4.11)
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Posts:
15
Registered:
Jul 10, 2006
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 10, 2008 7:22 PM
in response to: PoliSciGuy
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Everyone needs to read this article. There are many more articles like it. Looks like all of us all of us affected MBP users have to wait for Nvidia and Apple to act.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/08/nvidia.html
MBP 17" 2.6GHZ 4MB
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6
Registered:
Dec 5, 2007
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 10, 2008 7:36 PM
in response to: Rod Hagen
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My opinion on the matter certainly isn't that they need to recall all the SR MacBook Pros or anything like that. I tend to agree with your opinion on this issue, actually, outside of your apparent belief that people are coming here to slam MacBook Pros through some kind of bizarre vendetta. People aren't asking for help not because they're just complaining, but because they know they're already past help. After Apple tells you to zap the PRAM and reset the power management, these guys are stuck with a $1800+ paperweight and they're looking for a place to complain about their lack of options.
There is enough evidence to convince a lot of people that every chip is bad; I'm not nearly so quick to make that judgment. But we have a lot of people with really similar experiences and symptoms. It's not unreasonable to expect Apple to give us some kind of statement on it. And if it does end up being Apple's fault because of faulty design (and putting a bad chip in the board or not cooling it well enough would qualify as bad design), we can probably be justified in expecting Apple to help out customers who are just out of warranty. A 1/1000 failure rate is, I agree, probably reasonable. It's just a little high for one particular defect.
Some people, of course, are overreacting. Let me assure you, though, there are at least some of us out here with this problem. And, God forbid, if this problem happened to you, you'd realize that it's a uniquely frustrating one.
I understand that you like Apple and are willing to defend it; that's reasonable. But God help us all if there are people out there that are sad enough to pretend to have a malfunctioning computer to create problems on Apple's discussion boards.
MacBook Pro 15"
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
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Posts:
138
Registered:
Mar 31, 2005
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 11, 2008 2:49 PM
in response to: hovering barns
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hi,
thanks for this mr. barns. god forbid that i have to hear "zap the PRAM" one more time to deal with the graphics issues that i have been having. and i really agree with you that it is unlikely that anyone here is using the support boards to clobber apple. all i think most people want is some help with the issue.
all the best
iBook G4 800Mhz/MacBook Pro 2.2 Ghz
Mac OS X (10.4.11)
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Posts:
63
From:
Cirencester, UK
Registered:
May 4, 2005
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Re: Apple/Nvidia: Obliged to extend warranties?
Posted:
Aug 13, 2008 4:17 AM
in response to: rickydiculous
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rickydiculous,
As you appear to be in the UK, the Sale of Goods and Services Act covers just such a situation. Regardless of warranty if the device fails and you can prove that it was due to a fault in the hardware at time of purchase then you are entitled to a repair/replacement up to 6 years from the date of purchase.
However, you have to;
1. Prove it was a fault in manufacture beyond 2 years
2. It has to fail, you cannot get a repair/replacement because it 'might' fail
... these are your legal rights. Also it is NOT Apple's problem it is the reseller from whom you bought the item who has the problem (in the UK). I would suggest you go talk to them about it as they need to be prepared for a heavy cost.
Regards
Mac Mini (G4), PPC 7100 (OS8.6), iMac G3 (OS 10.3.9), iMac Core 2 Duo, MacBook Pro 17"
Mac OS X (10.5.4)
Airport Express
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