Posts:
6,601
From:
White Bear Lake, Minnesota
Registered:
Apr 5, 2001
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 20, 2009 6:02 PM
in response to: Kurt Lang
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Quoting myself here from above.
What I'm getting at is if you ran Monolingual, or any method of removing language files, that may be at least one major reason why some can't get any fonts to work. Reinstall the OS if you have removed language files.
And the result of testing that theory is drat! Just to double check, I cloned the drive I have SL on to an empty partition and ran Monolingual again, fully expecting it to break the ability to open any fonts. WRONG! Nothing happened at all. Every font I throw at Suitcase Fusion 2 or just drop into a Fonts folder manually opens as you would expect.
Now I'm back to no clue. Is a third party app overwriting a system file with its own modified version? Is such an app introducing old type handling code into SL that shouldn't be there that reinstalling SL fixed?
Mac Pro 8 core Xeon, 6GB RAM
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
Kodak Eversmart Supreme scanner, Epson Stylus Pro 4000
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Posts:
8
From:
Portland, OR
Registered:
Sep 18, 2009
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 10:05 AM
in response to: Kurt Lang
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Don't know if you've ever seen this, but if you wouldn't mind looking my article over for errors, or widespread misconceptions that are incorrect, I'd be forever grateful. 
Font Management in OS X
Funny, Martin Stein pointed that out to me just last Friday, and I have it open in another browser window. I'll look at it some time this week.
Regards,
T
MacBook Pro
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
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Posts:
6,601
From:
White Bear Lake, Minnesota
Registered:
Apr 5, 2001
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 11:01 AM
in response to: Thomas Phinney
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Funny, Martin Stein pointed that out to me just last Friday...
Small world.  Very nice guy at Extensis, as you likely already know.
I'll look at it some time this week.
Thanks!
Mac Pro 8 core Xeon, 6GB RAM
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
Kodak Eversmart Supreme scanner, Epson Stylus Pro 4000
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Posts:
76
Registered:
Feb 7, 2003
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 12:20 PM
in response to: Kurt Lang
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People that are running into this issue and want to see it addressed by Apple should log bugs into their database at http://bugreport.apple.com/
The more noise we make the higher ranked this problem becomes.
2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
Mac OS X (10.5.6)
4 GB 1067 MHz DDR3
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Posts:
6,601
From:
White Bear Lake, Minnesota
Registered:
Apr 5, 2001
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 12:42 PM
in response to: TYP3G1RL
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It's not necessary to deluge Apple with bug reports. They already have two, and so are well aware of the issue.
My report is one, in which I also included links to these threads so Apple can follow them. There was also another report before mine.
Mac Pro 8 core Xeon, 6GB RAM
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
Kodak Eversmart Supreme scanner, Epson Stylus Pro 4000
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Posts:
76
Registered:
Feb 7, 2003
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 12:45 PM
in response to: Kurt Lang
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You might be right. I just think that sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the oil. 
2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
Mac OS X (10.5.6)
4 GB 1067 MHz DDR3
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Posts:
43
Registered:
May 16, 2005
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 1:41 PM
in response to: Kurt Lang
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The bug reporting link returns an error. It does provide an email address for reporting. And while Apple doesn't necessarily need a deluge of additional bug reports, I'm not sure one hand knows what the other is doing, especially in light of the responses I received. I recounted my case to Apple developers. I have read numerous other cases of font problems that differ from this. It is not meant to be all inclusive, but rather a specific account of problems that I have well documented. Also, my experience has been the same as many other reports on Apple discussion forums and Quark forum.
Just a note: I did receive a robo-reply from Apple development with with a case number and the Weblink for bug reporting ... it failed again.
Here is my correspondence:
Re: case number XXXXXXXXX
I have been chasing this problem since Sept. 4.
Postscript Type 1 fonts are not working correctly in Snow Leopard. The problem is most severe in Quark XPress 7.5 and 8.12. Snow Leopard is not returning the correct values for horizontal and metrics for a significant number of PST1 fonts. All are from the Adobe Type Library (circa 1994).
On Sept. 4 Quark Technical support wrote via email:
"This is actually an Apple defect, the Apple Type Services API ATSFontGetHorizontalMetrics is returning different values compared to Leopard for Type1 fonts"
I subsequently spoke with Dan Donnelly at Apple Technical Support. He said he would look into it. In the meantime there are two threads on the Apple discussion board with relevant contributions by Kurt Lange and Thomas Phineas.
On Sept. 14, Dan Donnelley wrote via email:
"I understand that your goal in posting on the discussions board was to try to help address issues with incompatible fonts and get other users input on the issue. I still have not received any more information than what we already know. There is not a definitive list of fonts that will or will not work ..."
On Sept. 18, Dan Donnelly wrote via email:
"Engineerings reply to the font issue is as follows.
The types of fonts that are supported in 10.6 vs 10.5 have not changed. While the system that handles fonts was changed on the back end, the changes should not be visible to customers. The reason the developer article I found is marked as legacy is that fonts are now handled by a different internal process, CoreText, rather then the old font management system, Apple Type Support.
It is possible that the fonts could have had some kind of issue with them that was not being detected in 10.5, but is now being caught in 10.6. With this kind of issue, you should troubleshoot it as normal. If we are able to isolate the issues to a specific font, refer the customer back to where they originally got that font from.
If Quark believes they have found a bug in the way that 10.6 is handling some of their fonts, we should be recommending that they file a bug report directly to Apple via the developer channel. That way, we can confirm the issue with them and work with them directly to resolve the issue.
Since we know this issue is with specific fonts and not all fonts the next step is to contact the vendor of the fonts."
I find this response wholly unsatisfying. The problem I have encountered (as well as many other users in the design/prepress/printing industry) is reflow of PST1 (Adobe Type Library) fonts in Quark documents that due to Snow Leopard returning different metric in Snow Leopard than in Leopard. The fonts in questions have been checked and are not corrupted, damaged or altered.
Today (Sept. 21), Quark Technical support responded via email to the Engineers reply from Apple that I forwarded:
"... I think this is already logged as Defect with Apple, I suppose the defect # for Apple is 7208423."
I don't know what this means, but I hope it means that you are trying to isolate the code in CoreText that is the culprit, so as to rewrite the code to emulate the old handling of PST1 horizontal and vertical type metrics.
Converting the fonts to OTF does help but only to the degree that the metrics are within an acceptable range for creating new documents. However, the metrics still vary enough from the PST1 fonts that some (albeit far fewer) reflow issues occur with legacy documents. This is a huge issue for revising and imaging (pre-Snow Leopard) documents created with PST1 fonts, especially in Quark XPress.
Running redundant systems, repurchasing an entire type library or converting it to OTF are not attractive options.
All troubleshooting points back to Snow Leopard as the source of these problems. Your attention to fixing this issue is appreciated.
MacBook Pro 2.93 GHz
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
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Posts:
6,601
From:
White Bear Lake, Minnesota
Registered:
Apr 5, 2001
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 2:05 PM
in response to: Robert Hoot
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The bug reporting link returns an error.
Odd. I tried it again just now and the login screen comes up. You can get to the same place with one of the default links provided with Safari. It's under "Apple Developer Site > ADC - Bug Reporting".
"This is actually an Apple defect, the Apple Type Services API ATSFontGetHorizontalMetrics is returning different values compared to Leopard for Type1 fonts"
Makes you wonder why the Adobe CS4 apps aren't having the problem with the same fonts. They must be using their own functions to read the font metrics rather than relying on the OS.
There is not a definitive list of fonts that will or will not work ...
That would be an awfully tall order for anyone to try and fill for Dan.
I don't know what this means, but I hope it means that you are trying to isolate the code in CoreText that is the culprit, so as to rewrite the code to emulate the old handling of PST1 horizontal and vertical type metrics.
Me too! I've seen this issue with various pristine Type 1 fonts pulled from an Adobe application CD. Can't just blame it on damaged fonts.
Running redundant systems, repurchasing an entire type library or converting it to OTF are not attractive options.
Especially since what is supposed to be the exact replacement font for and older Type 1 version isn't necessarily going to flow the same. Most of the time, they don't.
All troubleshooting points back to Snow Leopard as the source of these problems.
Not privy to Apple's source code of course, but I'd have to agree. The same fonts display identically in Panther, Tiger and Leopard. They don't in Snow Leopard. That in itself pretty well points to the OS.
Mac Pro 8 core Xeon, 6GB RAM
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
Kodak Eversmart Supreme scanner, Epson Stylus Pro 4000
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Posts:
8
Registered:
Sep 21, 2009
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 5:07 PM
in response to: Kurt Lang
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Yes it is. What gets Apple's attention are logged bugs that they can look into, not posts in forums.
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Posts:
6,601
From:
White Bear Lake, Minnesota
Registered:
Apr 5, 2001
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 5:26 PM
in response to: MiguelSousa
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That's just it. The bug is already logged. They know about it. They're working on it.
There is no need to beat it to death.
Mac Pro 8 core Xeon, 6GB RAM
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
Kodak Eversmart Supreme scanner, Epson Stylus Pro 4000
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Posts:
8
Registered:
Sep 21, 2009
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 21, 2009 6:37 PM
in response to: Kurt Lang
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It's not a matter of beating it to death it's a matter of letting them know that a lot more people are affected by this bug.
And just because someone logged one bug regarding this issue does not mean that the fix will take care of everyone's problems. Systems are different, versions are different, fonts are different, so the more bugs are logged the more test cases Apple has to bulletproof the fix. Otherwise we'll be beating this for the next few minor updates to 10.6.
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Posts:
3
From:
Isle of aMan
Registered:
Sep 18, 2009
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 22, 2009 12:09 AM
in response to: TYP3G1RL
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i'm having problems with Indesign not updating the display of fonts. I select the type, click up 1 point in size and hey presto - the type is gone! Deselecting the type then reselecting the type brings the preview back. But this must be done every time i attempt to edit a piece of type. Every time. Un-workable is the word i'll use, although my mind is currently being deluged with far more words which would most likely get me booted of the forum! This happens regardless of the font type, is sometimes fixed by a restart, sometimes not.
I have read somewhere here of someone experiencing a similar issue in Illustrator... Illustrator for me, however is fine.
I also believe that one or two bug reports to Apple won't cut it. Apple dropping the ball like this is appalling and they need to know exactly how many people their negligence has effected. Their Bug Reporter should be creaking under the weight of complaints from disillusioned, behind schedule, stark-raving-bonkers Apple users. In fact I think the Bug Reporter may be struggling as when I try to login in reports and error to me!
I wonder what odds I'd get on the Bug Reporter having compatability issues with SL Safari? ;o)
Macbook pro 2.5 intel core 2 duo
Mac OS X (10.6.1)
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Posts:
43
Registered:
May 16, 2005
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 22, 2009 7:15 AM
in response to: Kurt Lang
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Kurt,
I want to believe that the software engineers at Apple are busily toiling on this PST1 font issue. Granting that they are, Apple has another big problem. At the tech support level, it is as if this problem does not exist. None of the Level 1 technicians seem to be aware of this problem or acknowledge its existence.
Even the most recent response on my case number (from the Apple engineers) blames the fonts/font manufacturers and does not acknowledge any problem/difference with Snow Leopard font handling. That is even after they have stated that ATS is longer part of the font handling code, having been replaced by CoreText. (See Dan Donnelly's response from the engineers from Sept. 18 in an earlier post.) Apple put the onus on Quark and/or the font manufacturer to file a bug report.
This would tend to undermine the assertion that the engineers are working on this bug. It seems as if the engineers are spending their time defending the code rather than debugging it.
Honestly, a low-key acknowledgement of the problem would go a long way to reassuring users that they are aware of the issue and working on a solution.
Quark stands in stark contrast to Apple on this one. Their techs requested my files and fonts, found the reason why different metrics were being returned in 10.6 vs. 10.5. Dan Logan, product manager for Quark is responding on their forum and referring users to the different threads. They are also forthcoming about their communication with Apple. They are behind the eight-ball. They know it is a Snow Leopard issue and must wait for Apple to get back to them. Meanwhile, they are twisting in the wind along many users, while Apple stonewalls. The may be working on the problem, but it's hard to tell.
MacBook Pro 2.93 GHz
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
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Posts:
6,601
From:
White Bear Lake, Minnesota
Registered:
Apr 5, 2001
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 22, 2009 8:13 AM
in response to: Robert Hoot
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That is all very disheartening to hear, Robert. To have the same problem appear in Keynote and other Apple applications, yet still deny there's a problem with font handling in Snow Leopard is the proverbial "sticking your head in the sand and hope it goes away" approach.
You've posted a lot of very good information from both Quark's engineers and Apple's. I don't think anyone could mistake where the problem lies. Apple is the one that needs to fix this.
Mac Pro 8 core Xeon, 6GB RAM
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
Kodak Eversmart Supreme scanner, Epson Stylus Pro 4000
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Posts:
43
Registered:
May 16, 2005
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Re: Major Font Problems in Snow Leopard!
Posted:
Sep 22, 2009 2:16 PM
in response to: Kurt Lang
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Much of this talk of bug reports may be moot anyway. The reason the Apple bug report link didn't work for me was because I am not a developer. I am but a lowly user. I have been trying to get my concurrent correspondence with Apple and Quark, as well as my own troubleshooting sent to Apple engineers via email (taken from the failed login page from bug reporting).
I received a reporting number with the robo-response. I have reformatted with reference to reporting number and can only hope that the report is accepted and passed on, although the response always indicates that the Weblink should be used for reporting.
I did send the pertinent timeline and summary to Dan Donnelly at Apple Tech Support, as well. But again, my last response from Apple (via Dan's email) indicated that their engineers consider this a problem with some third-party fonts, not Snow Leopard.
I would be satisfied (for the time being) with a direct acknowledgement from Apple that they recognize there may be font issues with SL and they are working on it. I have not seen anything like that from Apple.
MacBook Pro 2.93 GHz
Mac OS X (10.5.8)
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