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How do dual Graphics cards work?

Hi,


Just took delivery of new Mac Pro...

Processor 3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5

Memory 32 GB 1867 MHz DDR3 ECC

Graphics AMD FirePro D700 6144 MB X 2


Really pleased, even though it does look like a kettle without a spout!


I have three monitors connected to the Mac Pro and notice that they are all using the same single card on slot 2 - so what is the second card (or the one on slot 1) actually doing?


Might be a very stupid question to some, but I'm intrigued as to how two graphics cards work together (or independently). How can I get the best from them?


Nick

Mac Pro, OS X Mavericks (10.9.4)

Posted on Aug 6, 2014 6:15 PM

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Posted on Aug 6, 2014 6:23 PM

so what is the second card (or the one on slot 1) actually doing?

It turns out that the stuff a graphics card has been doing all this time is almost exactly what we used to call an Array Transform processor. It can, in parallel, execute the same set of mathematical instructions (like multiply and accumulate) in lock-step, on thousands of numbers at a time. There are some really interesting problems that could use that kind of compute power.


So.. the second card is doing ... computation.


The trouble with having a graphics card doing massively parallel computations is that it gets interrupted to re-draw the screen 60 to 100 times a second, and it can't just pick up where it left off. So the second card is deliberately NOT connected to any displays, so it does not get interrupted by trivial stuff.

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Question marked as Best reply

Aug 6, 2014 6:23 PM in response to nickgates

so what is the second card (or the one on slot 1) actually doing?

It turns out that the stuff a graphics card has been doing all this time is almost exactly what we used to call an Array Transform processor. It can, in parallel, execute the same set of mathematical instructions (like multiply and accumulate) in lock-step, on thousands of numbers at a time. There are some really interesting problems that could use that kind of compute power.


So.. the second card is doing ... computation.


The trouble with having a graphics card doing massively parallel computations is that it gets interrupted to re-draw the screen 60 to 100 times a second, and it can't just pick up where it left off. So the second card is deliberately NOT connected to any displays, so it does not get interrupted by trivial stuff.

Aug 7, 2014 6:27 AM in response to Linc Davis

Many thanks for the answers. That really does help.


I use the Mac mainly for video editing. Not FCP but Adobe Premiere. So it seems from what you both say that the second card only really comes to life if the software is using OpenCL? Did some tests in Premiere and there are some differences with rendering times but nothing amazing compared to my old iMac (which had a 1gig single Nvidia graphics card).


Although...when I set up the new MacPro I did so by porting from the iMac Time Machine backup. Could this have been a mistake? Does software such as Adobo Premiere CC install specific components based on the hardware it may find?

Aug 7, 2014 8:11 AM in response to nickgates

It probably is best when talking apps that use an installer and moving to different hardware to do a clean fresh installs.


Until such apps are updated which can be long 2 yr product cycles, they won't leverage the nMP configuration and Dxxx AMDs.

Odd in some ways as SLI and CrossFire have had a long history of assisting graphics. Or even GPGPU and CUDA (a lot of tears were shed when it became clear CUDA was left out)

Aug 7, 2014 9:48 AM in response to The hatter

Thanks Hatter. Just to update, tried re-installing Premiere Pro - absolutely no difference.


AMD Firepro's do not seem to be supported on Mac for Premiere Pro (they are for Windows). They work fine, but the performance on the New MacPro is no better than it was on my old iMac (in Premiere). Really disappointing. More annoyed with myself for not exploring this better before purchasing the MacPro.


This seems to be the cards Mac are installing as standard on new MacPro's, are they doing this just to push Mac users into using FCP? If so, it aint going to work here! At the moment feel like selling the MacPro and buying two monster PC's for the same money.

Aug 7, 2014 10:04 AM in response to nickgates

Have you discovered and read

http://www.macperformanceguide.com


has a lot of tips and help and test results. And yes the Dxxx do have problems.

Maybe Yosemite will help. Maybe the next generation nMP.

Maybe Adobe.


The "oMP" like the 2012 5,1 suddenly were worth more and could use two of your choice GPUs or GTX 7xx.

http://www.barefeats.com has done a lot of testing always worth checking in your research.


If you are in the first 14 days after purchase you should be able to return it.

Your iMac could have GTX in the high-end model. And doesn't have the problems.

Aug 8, 2014 5:11 PM in response to The hatter

Thanks for all of the info, it has lead me to get a clearer understanding of what my issue is and it's not the Mac or the Graphics. I was trying to run projects from external (spinning) drives. Had hoped that now they are running on USB3 would see an increase in performance. Not to be!


So tried setting up new project on internal SSD and now I see the difference! Will work on internal and then archive to externals when finished - obvious really!


Thanks for your help guys!


Nick

Aug 8, 2014 6:16 PM in response to nickgates

SSD speed is not a strict requirement. You can use a Source Drive and a Destination drive, both different from the Boot drive, to good effect for most projects.


RAID is NOT faster if you use it for both Source and Destination. A RAID gets its speed from overlapping EITHER Reads from multiple drives or Writes to multiple drives for one very large file. Random Reads and Writes, or references to more than one file at a time are slower on a RAID.

--------


There are also some external SSD drives, USB-3 as well as ThunderBolt.


On the late 2013 Mac Pro, although there are four USB ports, there is only enough bandwidth to run one USB-3 full duplex at full capacity. So one or two USB-3 drives is fine, but for time-critical production stuff NOT more than a few USB-3 drives for that model Mac Pro.

Dec 19, 2014 1:52 PM in response to Linc Davis

This is the correct answer. The Dual GPU configuration remains nearly useless well over a year after the machines were announced and about a year after they were released. This is partly Apple's fault for doing almost nothing substantial with the drivers or OpenCL's kit and documentation since announcing these machines, and partly because a lot of developers who said they were on board in the run-up to the Mac Pro's release, balked or were just full of it.


Not really a question of dev cycles either as at the very least many developers might show a "sneak peak" or let users know through their social media that they're still "working on it". Nope. Not a word from any of them. The most I've seen are comments like "we're still exploring how to take advantage of this machine" or "we are planning something but there's not timetable" (loosely translated as "no time soon"). Except Adobe, for which the words were "sorry bro, we didn't support that", altough to be fair the CC2014 release was WAY too close to the Mac Pro's release to do much about it. By the time January of last year rolled around, the entire suite was a finished product (no new features would've been added from that point). However I wouldn't hold your collective breath for CC 2015. Odds of strong GPGPU support being added for the idle card are about 100:1 IMO.

Dec 19, 2014 5:52 PM in response to kahjot

Apple may well have done work to make FCP work with the card, as you would expect them to, their machine, their software, but FCP is still nothing more than an expanded i-movie. Apple are obsessed by the consumer market. They have no time or respect for users that use their machines seriously for work.


I am old enough to have witnessed their arrogance and stupidity in the nineties, which if not for the i-pod and i-tunes (and an amazing designer) would have sent them into oblivion. I feel that same arrogance is sending them again back into dangerous territory. They are attempting to force users to do everything "the Apple way".


Apple machines are undoubtedly the best (or at least used to be). Apple software? Using the Final Cut example again, what used to be a piece of software that set the standards, it is now no more than a toy. As is the new version of Logic. And Apple Mail? Safari? Calendar? I could go on.


I messed up when I brought my new machine. I stupidly assumed Apple would have looked at the market, checked with other software developers before installing graphics cards that no one else seem interested in - and I can't even swap them unless I take out a new mortgage on my house?


Who can really blame Adobe? Why should they or anyone else constantly pander to Apple's obsession with world domination?


BTW, this isn't just a rant at a big corporation. This happened to Microsoft, you see the same arrogance with all big corporations, including Adobe - power corrupts and blurs reality - and leaves me with two powerful graphics cards that I can't use to their full potential!


Feel better now.

Dec 19, 2014 6:18 PM in response to nickgates

checked with other software developers before installing graphics cards that no one else seem interested in

I see the world somewhat differently.


For certain sectors, the leader was NVIDIA. Its CUDA technology is proprietary. But NVIDIA has not been good about providing proper support or internal details about how their chips and CUDA actually work. So if Apple signs on with NVIDIA, Apple is betting the entire high end on stuff that NVIDIA controls, and NVIDIA does not have a very good track record regarding support and internal workings. For Apple, that is not a tolerable situation.


So Apple said instead, Apple is backing OpenCL, which is still young, but will run on any Graphics card, not only NVIDIA. Apple then produces Final Cut Pro -X to show how it can work, and says they stand ready to help developers re-tool to use this Open Standard.


Users may currently feel they are caught in the middle, with Apple saying Open Standard and few developers committing support. But computer History is littered with dead companies that said, "Do it my (proprietary) way, and no licensing or participation by anyone else".

Dec 19, 2014 6:22 PM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

I will say Apple did a nice job of showing what these cards can do by optimizing Final Cut for it, but it makes it all the more frustrating because that's it. There's nothing else in the professional space (please no Pixelmator comments anyone) that does anything remotely similar with this machine. So far. I haven't given up all hope but I'm getting there.


Either way Apple has dropped the ball on the drivers and API fronts, which for developers is where the rubber meets the road. Instead of making it easy for people to adapt their wares to this machine, Apple has left OpenCL migration a difficult process (which it always was -- and that's part of the reason Adobe never went wild with OpenCL, just adding support for it here and there).

Dec 19, 2014 6:38 PM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

Grant, you obviously have a much better grasp of the technicalities of the subject, but as you say, a mere dedicated Apple user such as myself is caught in the middle and that isn't the Silicone Valley dream surely?


I should add that Adobe Encoder uses OpenCL and what used to take 4 hours to render not takes 25 minutes - amazing. But After Effects renders and previews like a pig, and according to Adobe forums "will never support Open CL (or at least AMD cards)".


Like Dan-o, I too do not give up hope.

How do dual Graphics cards work?

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