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Dither screwed up in WB 1.6

8142 Views 26 Replies Latest reply: Jan 5, 2010 11:22 PM by danseq RSS
  • zmix Level 1 Level 1 (115 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 20, 2009 5:55 AM (in response to danseq)
    Fade tests not withstanding..

    Here is a SIMPLE but highly accurate and informative test I performed by importing a track into WB, and bouncing it out both with and without dither.

    Each of these files were then reimported into logic and aligned with the original (24 or 16 bit, I tried both, same results) source file, polarity inverted to null them and checked using "RMS Buddy" across the output bus. No level shifting required.

    http://destroyfx.smartelectronix.com/docs/rms-buddy.html

    This is a FREE plug-in meter. It will show numerical peak and RMS levels with great accuracy and even has an adjustable integration time for the RMS detector.

    I only get 90.3 dB of null on the WB bounced files, both with and without dither.

    The same test using Wave Editor resulted in more that 96dB of Null.. theoretically perfect.

    I 'd like to see what each of you are getting when using this method. It's MUCH less picky than creating fades, etc and every bit as revealing (no pun intended).

    -Chuck Zwicky
    G5 Quad, Mac OS X (10.4.11)
  • timrob Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 20, 2009 8:26 AM (in response to danseq)
    danseq wrote:
    Thanks for checking this. timrob.


    Also very curious to see if it sounds the same in 10.5.8

    Can you repeat with sine down 20 dB +/- from there? If it's clean then it's either something in my system or 10.6.


    Yeah, it occurred to me that I should have gone with a lower level. I'm tied up mixing the rest of the week. Might have a few minutes here and there to try some more tests.

    Sure wish someone from Apple would participate in these discussions.
    I would think that would be the point of hosting them in the first place.

    more later.

    timrob
  • timrob Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 21, 2009 8:24 AM (in response to danseq)
    danseq,
    I've done some testing this morning using a -75db sine wave. Now, I'm getting results similar to yours.
    Even with Ozone plugin on the mix using MBIT.
    So, now I'm a believer. WB 1.6 does appear to be truncating, even when dither is applied via Plugin.

    I suspect they are writing 16bit file before applying dither and possibly before applying plugins. Don't know that for sure, but it would make sense if that was the case.

    It is a shame. WB has the potential to be a premiere mastering app, but continues to be mired with bugs. I don't understand it. I mean it would be one thing if there were only a couple of gotchas, but there are several.

    Now this is all using Bounce Project. I haven't tried using Burn. But I wouldn't expect results to be any different.

    best,

    timrob
    Macbook Pro 2.4Ghz, Mac OS X (10.6.1), logic Studio 9.0.2, WB1.6
  • zmix Level 1 Level 1 (115 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 21, 2009 12:32 PM (in response to danseq)
    danseq wrote:
    zmix wrote:


    Each of these files were then reimported into logic and aligned with the original (24 or 16 bit, I tried both, same results) source file, polarity inverted to null them and checked using "RMS Buddy" across the output bus. No level shifting required.


    Thanks, Z. Will DL that.

    Question...Do you just visually align them? One of the problems I've had is that in comparing the original files with WB bounces I find that WB seems to add somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-20 ms of space at the beginning of the new bounced regions (I haven't measured it exactly), making phase alignment trickier when trying to do null tests. Has this happened to any of you?

    I'll try this metered null test when I get a minute and see what happens.


    If the bounced file is offset from the original source, I suggest using the "sample delay" plugin to align the files. Which ever file is earlier gets the delay. Apple claimed to have instituted sample accurate waveform editing in the arrange page, but as always, best to trust your ears.
    G5 Quad, Mac OS X (10.4.11)
  • timrob Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 21, 2009 1:32 PM (in response to danseq)
    Had a few minutes to try some alternatives.

    It would appear that Bounce Mix works correctly, but Bounce Project does not.

    Also, Save DDP image seems to work correctly.


    timrob
  • timrob Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 21, 2009 2:20 PM (in response to danseq)
    danseq wrote:
    Hmm... I haven't even tried Pounce Project recently. I've been doing Bounce Region for these tests.

    I'll try some more tests to see if I can't match your findings.

    If you can try bounce region and also see if it's adding the small offset, that would be great.


    I'm not getting any offsets from any of the bounce functions.

    timrob
  • timrob Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 5, 2009 7:28 AM (in response to danseq)
    I just installed WB 1.6.1. My initial tests seem to indicate that it is fixed.

    Bypass in Mix Plugins section works correctly now. I haven't tested whether plugin parameters are maintained during playback, but the release notes claim that is fixed also.

    Best,

    timrob
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