1 2 3 Previous Next 31 Replies Latest reply: Aug 9, 2010 6:16 AM by The hatter Go to original post
  • 15. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    The hatter Level 9 Level 9 (58,880 points)
    Nah, just shows really poor Q&A and how actually Windows 7 took a year to test, while Apple ships an OS and then tests!

    The hardware is good.
  • 16. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    The hatter Level 9 Level 9 (58,880 points)
    I ran across a Geekbench score of 28239 using dual Gulftown Intel Xeon X5680 http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/264312

    I don't endorse or condone - I think Windows 7 x64 is perfect platform (and tested drivers and updates)

    EVGA SR-2 platform using 5680's
    http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/top

    Mac Performance Chart
    http://www.primatelabs.ca/geekbench/mac-benchmarks/
  • 17. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    deepshade Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    The hatter wrote:
    I ran across a Geekbench score of 28239 using dual Gulftown Intel Xeon X5680 http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/264312


    Looks fantastic

    If the 2010 MacPro was anything like that, I'd be opening my cheque book straight away.

    I just wish we knew where we stood with Apple on the next MacPro.
    Looking at current news - they are into everything but...
  • 18. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    The hatter Level 9 Level 9 (58,880 points)
    Awesome numbers from Gulftown. $1,723.15 x 2

    Intel Xeon X5680 Westmere 3.33GHz 12MB L3 Cache LGA 1366 130W Six-Core Server Processor BX80614X5680
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117228

    Nvidia has some lower end (they start wtih high end GTX 480s afterall) with lower power (Apple requires a card that can be powered on just PCIe slot) and those won't be out for retail until September. Mid-range 450/455/460 series look like July - August.

    A lot of things beyond just getting early parts from Intel. Let alone knowing that SATA III drives are already a fact of life, or that SSD has matured a lot from where it was summer and fall of 2008.

    Apple wouldn't want to be caught with ATI 4xxx or Nvidia 2xx would they? Wrong timing in product cycles, if there ever was one. And driver performance, an issue now, an issue with each and every new card that has come out, means out of the gate, things won't be perfect either.

    Late in year is very common. The first Mac Pro came out August 2006.

    Now we see some idea of just what Gulftown can deliver for its part, and assume the next 'toc' will be just as... interesting.

    logicboard $600
    processors $3400
    psu $400
    case $300
    misc $250
    gtx 480 $500
    DDR3 ECC 24GB 6 x 4GB $900 (Crucial set)
    - - - - -
    $6500 + price for "custom" parts and "tax"

    Could you free yourself from the tether and actually build a box of your own. Linux can be very efficient workhorse, or stick with Windows 7 Pro (dual processor support) and excellent multicore /threading capability. Unlike PCs that can go back and forth on drivers and BIOS there usually is at most one SMC/EFI patch. And - hope nothing breaks (though that seems like another fact of life) as far as software and drivers.
  • 19. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    deepshade Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Nvidia has some lower end (they start wtih high end GTX 480s afterall) with lower power (Apple requires a card that can be powered on just PCIe slot) and those won't be out for retail until September. Mid-range 450/455/460 series look like July - August.


    You'd think with Apple being the biggest (worth) tech company in the world that it would get some preferential treatment and release something ahead of the corner electrical shop!!
  • 20. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    The hatter Level 9 Level 9 (58,880 points)
    Big Blue sat in the captains chair and Microsoft was the underdog.

    They have gotten treated by Intel, but Apple is not / has not been a big graphic oriented company by Nvidia standards and OEM cards have different releases.

    Not only have cards been lower end (the GTX 285 was the first big exception but came out when GTX 200s were winding down and 6 month shift to Fermi) but have been a year old when came out, no emphasis on performance cards, no CrossFire (was even disabled where it was possible), and of course SLI is out of the question. Even using a dedicated CUDA/GPGPU and needing extra power connectors.

    So no, Apple is small fish in the graphics market. And then there is the "Apple tax" of $100-150 at least on those anyway.

    Intel did get Apple at the front of the food chain. Which is why this whole thing isn't about just Gulftown alone and EX-series.
  • 21. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    deepshade Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    With drivers for the Radeon 5 series in macmini 10.6.4 image - at least that gives us some hope!
  • 22. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    The hatter Level 9 Level 9 (58,880 points)
    Yes, and some GTX 400 hints as well.

    I've been saying most of last 6 months that there is more to make a model of Mac Pro that makes sense for all the parts to come together.

    And with the issues that surfaced about 10.6.4's graphics, instead of every year having to watch it take 6-9 months for graphic card performance.

    Either way, OpenGL 4.0 and other specifications to work from.
  • 23. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    deepshade Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    OR...
    it could be we are all wasting time waiting for a 2010 MacPro that's just not going to happen, and the code was part of Apples response to the Valve/Steam issues?
  • 24. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    mhollis Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
    Oy!

    Intel makes new processor. Guys sit around and wonder if they can fit it into their machines, do more with it, etc. Gah!

    Last summer, I purchased the Dual Quad-core Mac -- fastest one they made, fastest one they still make. And I'm editing video on it using Final Cut Studio which needs an upgrade. I'm running Leopard, not Snow because Intuit cannot guarantee I can do my books and I still have (and use) Adobe CS3 applications (which don't like Snow).

    My Mac is not slow.

    Ooh, but Intel is making six-core processors!!!! Yeah? And what are you going to do with them, Bucko? Final Cut Studio is a 32-bit application so, while it does run faster on Snow, it's not open to lots of the stuff build in to take advantage of 8 cores -- let alone the theoretical 16 that are part of the Nehalem chipset. Grand Central? I don't think so.

    Oh, but there's Adobe! Yes, that's right, Adobe finally got their heads screwed back on straight and decided to have a nice hot cuppa Cocoa. But only for TWO applications, Photoshop and After Effects, which were pretty much tapped out in 32-bit anyway. And it will probably take about three to five years for Photoshop filters to transition to 64-bit.

    Not too long ago, I was on a Mac Pro (Pre-Nehalem) with some 16G of system RAM and a really niiiiice hot Sonnet SATA RAID array, editing. In fact, let me give you a link to one of the projects, OK? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUX6LFA4MoM
    Anyway, we were doing another project that required that we use a filter called Toonit:
    http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/all/toonit/
    I was trying to use Final Cut Pro like it was a compositing engine that edits and it doesn't composite very well (I do like Motion, having recently learned it). Every time we moved anything a frame, we had to re-render. And Toonit +only used one core+. I left the computer to render overnight and, in a 12-minute piece, that was just not enough.

    Here's my point folks: *Buy what works for you today*. Every month you wait for "the next awesome Apple Product that will totally wax the old stuff" is another month of lower productivity. And if you're buying a Mac Pro, you're not writing the next great novel. You're not just using it to surf the web and check the weather. You're buying that Mac Pro because you're a business and you need to haul butt while clients (ever-impatient) ask you to do more, give them better make it look like the latest thing.

    And until Apple releases Cocoa 64-bit Final Cut Studio, 64-bit Motion, all Adobe applications are Cocoa, Final Cut supports stereo vision (3-D) and/or unless you're editing with Autodesk's Smoke for Mac: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=14223504&siteID=123112
    You're just whistling Dixie. Because if you're using Smoke, you purchased the Dual Quad Nehalem and have been cranking out projects for about six months now. And, sure, you'd like it to run faster, but you know that no first-tier computer maker makes a faster CPU.

    So, go ahead. Wait another two months and see if Apple releases another, faster system. And watch, like I watched (back in the analog video only days, your clients slowly migrate to other facilities who can get their jobs done faster with the newest effects.

    So who cares if the theoretical new systems have 12 cores? Final Cut Studio is only able to use 4 of the 8 and underutilizes those as it is. So, instead of having four cores that sit idle, you'll have eight cores that sleep. That won't make you feel any better, won't keep your clients happier and won't make you any more money. And you will have wasted two to four months (or even more!) of productivity.

    The last system I had was a G4-400 that I upgraded to a 1GHz processor -- but that was my home box. Now, I've got a proper Mac Pro and use it for video work -- freelance. It was a good purchase. But Apple did release the Quad-Core iMac, and I've got to say, it probably does video editing faster than my Mac Pro. Only difference is it's not as easily expanded.

    Get real, guys.

    <Edited by Host>
  • 25. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    deepshade Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    mhollis wrote:


    Ooh, but Intel is making six-core processors!!!! Yeah? And what are you going to do with them, Bucko? Final Cut Studio is a 32-bit application so, while it does run faster on Snow, it's not open to lots of the stuff build in to take advantage of 8 cores -- let alone the theoretical 16 that are part of the Nehalem chipset. Grand Central? I don't think so.


    Some of us have 3D rendering to do

    Oh, but there's Adobe! Yes, that's right, Adobe finally got their heads screwed back on straight and decided to have a nice hot cuppa Cocoa. But only for TWO applications, Photoshop and After Effects, which were pretty much tapped out in 32-bit anyway. And it will probably take about three to five years for Photoshop filters to transition to 64-bit.


    Photoshop is where I need the power

    Here's my point folks: *Buy what works for you today*. Every month you wait for "the next awesome Apple Product that will totally wax the old stuff" is another month of lower productivity.


    Always a catch 22
    Purchase G5s at end of cycle - a few months later they had been totally superceeded.

    Agreed, it comes to a point where you are loosing money and you just have to go for it.

    Apple make a machine for Pros they just don't have any idea how to treat them.
  • 26. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    mhollis Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
    deepshade wrote:

    Some of us have 3D rendering to do

    Photoshop is where I need the power

    Always a catch 22
    Purchase G5s at end of cycle - a few months later they had been totally superceeded.

    Agreed, it comes to a point where you are losing money and you just have to go for it.

    Apple make a machine for Pros they just don't have any idea how to treat them.


    OK, if you are doing 3D rendering, you have a render farm, consisting of how many XServes? Everyone I work with who does hard-core rendering is using a farm. Leave it to cook overnight and you're done. Or render incrementally.

    But you say Photoshop is where you're doing your heavy lifting. Honestly, what exactly are you doing in Photoshop? If you're doing work for outdoor ads (billboards) then you have all ready solved your problem with a high-speed array for a scratch disk. Had that figured out back in the G4 days. And you maxed out your Mac's RAM some months ago. And you're careful to run only Photoshop and Illustrator (which is still 32-bit! Carboniferous) and not tie up your Mac with one thousand other little applications that help you do peripheral nonsense that is not part of your work.

    Oh, you're using filters! Well, that's not Apple's problem. Filters that only use one core, that are not 64-bit, that cannot take advantage of your new, shiny GPU (which is where filters are headed) will need to be updated to something modern (please see my discussion about ToonIt above).

    You seem to want to blame Apple for Adobe's failings and the failings of the filter makers and plugin people here.

    I have spoken to Apple and brought their people in to consult for no less than five video editing suites. And I watched as Apple *cut deals* for delivery of fully-blown systems designed to do high-end work. That's right, they gave discounts. One facility purchased 10 XServes as render farms for Maya, along with four Mac Pros for desktop work. Apple threw in 30" monitors to sweeten the deal for the 24" monitor price.

    Apple discontinued the G5 in mid-2006. But you knew they were going Intel in the first quarter of 2006 because the Mac Mini was on Intel then and they had rolled out the Intel-based MacBook Pro at the beginning of that year. So we've had five years of Intel now. Retire that G5 to word processing. Give it to your reception desk because it can still run your scheduling operation. You don't need Snow Leopard for that.

    I don't see this as Apple not taking care of the professional. I see this as a lot of action in the "Appliance" sector. Heck, I have the original iPhone. Looked at the 4th generation model yesterday. Might get it, might wait. My iPhone works pretty well for me presently.

    If you are truly in this to serve your clients and you are actually making money with your Mac, you're not still mired in G5-land. And if you are, every month you wait, you're working overtime just to keep up with me.

    The software that is out there isn't ready for a dual-six. Heck, most isn't ready for a dual-quad. And software that does take advantage of massive parallel processing is being set up on render farms. Get a few dual quad-core XServes for that. Then when Apple does upgrade the XServes, just buy the new one and slip it in for more horsepower. All current XServes run Snow Leopard and, I think the OS and the software all need to be the same version for a smooth render farm.

    But the last render farm I saw was running Linux. Which runs on Mac.


    Note Timeline for Mac models: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelineof_Macintoshmodels
  • 27. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    deepshade Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    mhollis wrote:
    deepshade wrote:

    Some of us have 3D rendering to do

    Photoshop is where I need the power

    Always a catch 22
    Purchase G5s at end of cycle - a few months later they had been totally superceeded.

    Agreed, it comes to a point where you are losing money and you just have to go for it.

    Apple make a machine for Pros they just don't have any idea how to treat them.


    OK, if you are doing 3D rendering, you have a render farm, consisting of how many XServes? Everyone I work with who does hard-core rendering is using a farm. Leave it to cook overnight and you're done. Or render incrementally.

    But you say Photoshop is where you're doing your heavy lifting. Honestly, what exactly are you doing in Photoshop? If you're doing work for outdoor ads (billboards) then you have all ready solved your problem with a high-speed array for a scratch disk. Had that figured out back in the G4 days. And you maxed out your Mac's RAM some months ago. And you're careful to run only Photoshop and Illustrator (which is still 32-bit! Carboniferous) and not tie up your Mac with one thousand other little applications that help you do peripheral nonsense that is not part of your work.

    Oh, you're using filters! Well, that's not Apple's problem. Filters that only use one core, that are not 64-bit, that cannot take advantage of your new, shiny GPU (which is where filters are headed) will need to be updated to something modern (please see my discussion about ToonIt above).

    You seem to want to blame Apple for Adobe's failings and the failings of the filter makers and plugin people here.

    I have spoken to Apple and brought their people in to consult for no less than five video editing suites. And I watched as Apple *cut deals* for delivery of fully-blown systems designed to do high-end work. That's right, they gave discounts. One facility purchased 10 XServes as render farms for Maya, along with four Mac Pros for desktop work. Apple threw in 30" monitors to sweeten the deal for the 24" monitor price.

    Apple discontinued the G5 in mid-2006. But you knew they were going Intel in the first quarter of 2006 because the Mac Mini was on Intel then and they had rolled out the Intel-based MacBook Pro at the beginning of that year. So we've had five years of Intel now. Retire that G5 to word processing. Give it to your reception desk because it can still run your scheduling operation. You don't need Snow Leopard for that.

    I don't see this as Apple not taking care of the professional. I see this as a lot of action in the "Appliance" sector. Heck, I have the original iPhone. Looked at the 4th generation model yesterday. Might get it, might wait. My iPhone works pretty well for me presently.

    If you are truly in this to serve your clients and you are actually making money with your Mac, you're not still mired in G5-land. And if you are, every month you wait, you're working overtime just to keep up with me................



    Please don't tell me how I should be running my business, especially using such a sarcastic and superior tone. How I do business and how I work is fine - my second house is nearly paid for and I get spend plenty of time with my family. How much I spend on equipment and when I buy equipment is my choice and its worked for me.

    If I feel that Apples attitude to the Pro user (like hundreds of others do) is poor - ie to treat them the same way as little jimmy buying his ipod - then you are not going to convince me otherwise. As for getting a visit from anyone at Apple - very much doubt it unless I want to invest 10's 000's with them and I don't.

    Maybe answering the original post would have been more useful than bragging about your superior business.
  • 28. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    Leslie Bell Level 2 Level 2 (340 points)
    "Apple make a machine for Pros they just don't have any idea how to treat them."

    They treat them like they want them to get lost, and most of us have.
  • 29. Re: DIY 6-core or 12-core
    Julian Boolean Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Hi All,

    1. Wow, awesome thread with loads of info. Permit me to join the jamboree with a somewhat related question.I tend to keep my workstations 6-8 years. *My Dual core 2.0Ghz G5* is starting to grow grey whiskers as this point and I'm contemplating a new purchase. Obviously, most any of the choices on the menu will be way faster than what I'm using now!

    2. I'm hoping for some suggestions on a set up that might last me another 6 years or so. The base model *four core, 3.66 GHZ* at $3700 is within my price range, seems to give me a nice bang for the buck (for what I do) compared with the 8 cores. Thoughts on that?

    3. I basically run two apps exclusively, 95% Photoshop files (2-8 Gigs), and 5% single frame still images for print in Modo 3d. I'm willing to pimp out the f*our core 3.66,* but what's a good set up for a cost sensitve retouching specialist such as myself? I'm thinking 32 gigs of ram, perhaps a raid 5 HD setup, perhaps a premium solid state hd for my boot drive, and I'm clueless on the whole video card issue. All thoughts, facts, unsubstantiated and biased opinions are greatly appreciated!

    -JB