Currently Being ModeratedJun 22, 2011 11:23 AM (in response to Bobbi Style)
I grew up on Logic, but trained professionally on Pro Tools. Reluctantly kicking and screaming the whole way I might add. But if you learn them both well, you will come to the sad conclusion that Logic is just unprofessional when it comes to work flow and editing. Another thing is that it needs a major update to its graphics, metering, etc. Its fine if you're a hobbyist, but I actually make a living spending more hours than I can count on a calculator in a DAW. Logic does not lend to a positive environment when you're exhausted. But what logic does have is flexibility. And potential. So I'm anxiously waiting and praying that Logic will be rewritten and completely out do PT. If Logic does not do this, I will stop waiting.
Whenever we get a new version of Logic, I hope it's nothing like what they did to FCX. Some improvements and new features but no backwards compatibility with existing sessions and a number of features missing. Basically they threw out the whole app and started over - if they do that with Logic it makes just as much sense to look at other apps as it does to upgrade.
But as for PT, it does some things great but is still shockingly primitive in other ways. It just depends on what you're doing (mainly if you're heavier into midi or audio) and how you work, overall both apps are every bit as "professional" (whatever that means). If I had to dump Logic for whatever reason I'd probably look first at Cubase, but hopefully that won't happen.
One thing that does relate directly to Logic users is that it looks like they've killed off Soundtrack Pro. It was never a great app but it did offer a number of editing features that Logic didn't have. I don't know if those will be rolled into the next version of Logic, but it looks like STP users need to start looking for another app to get that functionality.
Apps need to be rewritten periodically. The more weight you put on a foundation that wasn't built for it, the more it sinks into the ground. I agree PT can be fairly primitive, most of that is from Digidesign's awful business practices. They are slowly phasing in those features. I imagine by 10 or 11 PT may be just as flexible as logic. And people are constantly saying how much better it is to work with midi in logic. Thats probably true if you're solely dependent on what comes with the DAW, but I don't use either Logic or PT instruments. They're toys in my opinion. And editing midi is much more accurate and quicker in PT. To me "professional" comes down to workflow. If you don't have time crunches and extreme work loads, Logics fine. But if the amount of time you spend editing has a direct relationship with how much sleep you get, Logic is not fine. Markers are a big thing for me, Logic's markers are not up to par. I need a quick way to widen and narrow a stereo tracks feild. You have to load up a plug in to do this in Logic. Actually Logic doesn't technically have a stereo track. There is no way in Logic to get a large meter, atleast not without some kind of metering plugin. There's a ton of wasted space on Logic's track headers. For what? A picture? Not professional. And not flexible at all. You can add and take away tiny buttons, that's it. Switiching between tools = time wasted. I very RARELY have to change tools in PT. Its a very special reason I would have to. There's tons of redundency in Logic, having 5 different places to find the same thing isn't convienent, its called cluttler. Having the backwards compatibility as an arguement is flawed because you don't have to get rid of your old app. I have both Logic 8 and 9 on my machine, no issue. The benefits of a rewrite, with all the amazing time savers the new FC has far outweigh that arguement. A lot of people complain about not wanting a new Logic, you don't have to upgrade. No one is going to force you to buy it. If you like it and it works for you, more power to you. I've laid out my reasons why it doesn't. But I still have some small loyalty to Logic, and I'd really like to see it become a PT killer. You know another way to judge what is and isnt "professional"? Maybe how many professionals use it. There's a reason people pay more money for less features with Pro Tools. Its not all bias.
Currently Being ModeratedJun 22, 2011 12:17 PM (in response to Todd Matthew)
Mike, I don't share your fear that Logic X will be as dramatic and painful to its users at it seems it is for the FCP crowd. The update cycle is too different. FCP was long overdue and they did a more dramatic rewrite. Logic had more incremental rewrites over the years regarding UI, workflow and 64 bit. I'm not sure about the code base, how much legacy code is still in Logic but looking at the Environment and Hyperdraw, some stuff is still stuck in the OS9 days. A full Lion/Intel only requirement for Logic X wouldn't surprise me and a change towards a more darker black look seems possible.
However, Mike you bring up a very important aspect of the Logic X speculation that is mostly overlooked and that is Soundtrack Pro. Apple quietly killed it (why no press release about that - embarrassment?). They seem to incorporated some features into FCP. So, way not having those features also incorporated into Logic X. The audio editing features in Soundtrack were amazing you could only **** for as a Logic user. (round trip editing was not a good solution). And by the way what happened to the Soundtrack Pro team anyway. Logic can have them every other week, or the FCP can have them on the weekends ...
(free Logic Manuals DingDingMusic.com/Manuals )
Do we know they have killed SoundtracK?
Technically, they are still selling it, and it is still on Apple's ite:
Obviously because it's part of Logic Studio, which is still a current product.
However, as FCP has been Unbundled and AppStored, we can presumably expect the same fate for the next version of Logic. If that is the case, then either Soundtrack will be AppStored, or not - at that point (unless Apple release some official info) we'll know.
Until then, it's difficult to be sure...
But certainly, all the time it's on the Apple Site, it's technically a current product.
Currently Being ModeratedJun 23, 2011 6:33 AM (in response to Todd Matthew)
Apps need to be rewritten, but removing features and not being able to open previous sessions isn't going to fly. In the case of FCX they threw out the old app and started over from scratch, it's not just a rewrite of code but a whole new app. And keeping the old app around isn't good enough, after a while the old version isn't going to be supported and you'll be looking at keeping an old OS boot partition or even old hardware just to open old sessions.
PT is making progress like any other app, but I still see no sign of fixing the really outdated annoying stuff (bounces only in real time?). Maybe by 10 or 11 they'll catch up, but maybe in the next versions Logic will pull ahead, it's all speculation at this point. And the midi is getting better but does PT really have all the features that Logic does? And PT is still 32 bit, running huge sample libraries is pretty much impossible without paying extra for a third party plugin host like VE pro. PT also requires paying for an expensive upgrade pack if you want all the features, some of which are included in Logic at a fraction of that price.
I agree that workflow is important but in the case of midi, Logic's workflow is better for me, especially with short deadlines and big workloads. None of the things you list are deal breakers and you can make a list just like it of PT shortcomings. I do like the smart tool in PT but with the ability to have three tools at your fingertips without switching (and have those three be window specific) I don't miss it much. As I said before, both have their limitations and it's not a case of "professional" as much as personal preference. Lots of pros use PT, lots use Logic, and lots use other apps. And much of that decision depends on the specific work you're doing.
I DO want a new version of Logic with plenty of improvements. I just don't want it to come at the expense of compatibility and missing major features - in the case of FCX the missing features are big enough that high end users simply can't use it at all yet since it doesn't do the required tasks. And Logic is already 64 bit, it may not require rewriting from the ground up like FCX did (or the rewriting may have already happened, as often rumored).
Edgar, you're right, I don't think it's likely we'll see the program get totally scrapped, especially since they've already done the work to make it 64 bit and make other fixes. No question the app is still being worked on, I doubt we'd see that if they were going to dump the codebase and start over. Not to mention that GB supposedly shares the same audio engine so that's unlikely to go away. Definitely a bummer that STP got dumped instead of making it a usable app, hopefully they'll add the best features of STP to logic as time goes on.
Bee Jay, I think the only reason STP is still listed is because it's still bundled with Logic and there's no practical way to remove it from the current version. If they were still going to offer it and continue development they would still have it listed on the FCX site which they don't, instead that site says that the audio editing was rolled into FCX. It may not be officially discontinued, but I suspect the next Logic version will not include it and at that point it will vanish from the apple website.
I don't see what the big deal is about old session compatibility. You can either keep something that opens them, or the smarter alternative... convert them. Its not that hard. Any way you should always always always have a rendered files folder after any session in case of session issues. I still have not found an easy way to do this in Logic btw. Just another thing that really should be easy to do but I have no way of doing it. What do you do when you send a song to a mixing engineer? Print everything out? Send them the session (which they hate)? But back to my main point, you're eventually going to have to let go of old sessions no matter what DAW you're using. Its like wanting your CD player to also take records. Sure there are combo units available, but its a feature that increasingly becomes less and less of a priority. As it should, if you do proper archiving. As for PT, I completely agree not having offline bouncing is in no way advantagous. Regardless of the academic debate of which sounds best. And when I mentioned working with midi in PT's I was specifically talking about its editing capabilites, which is Sibelius. There is no comparison, PT's is quicker, more accurate, more thought out. Like I said, I don't use built in virtual instruments, they're all crap. Yes, Logic's are pound for pound better. But I'm using NI(everything), Synthogy(all 3), Toontrack(every SDX), and Vienna(strings)... So what comes with a DAW is not at all important to me. There are also far more options available with midi in PTs, like exporting everything to Sibelius, multiple ways of printing, the chords actually work. So yeah you lose 3 minutes bouncing, but you save 30 minutes editing. And yes, some professionals use Logic, most of whom use it solely for demoing. Very few use it as their work horse. Even Nathan Chapman, who is probably the biggest name sponsored by Logic, can't even lie and say he uses it for even half of what he does. How sad is that when a sponser can't say its what they use? So all I see are a bunch of people stuck on the junky platform, outdated and redundent UI, and crying "I just want 9 to work!" or "I'm still on 8 and happy!" instead of expecting it to get better, you're afraid of it leaving you behind. You're like the guys who never learned computers because you're comfortable with tape.
Currently Being ModeratedJun 23, 2011 11:34 AM (in response to Todd Matthew)
What do you mean by "convert them"? That's not an option in the case of FCX, with that app there doesn't seem to be any way to bring in earlier sessions. And I don't agree about having to eventually let go of old sessions - has there been a version of PT or Logic that hasn't opened sessions from the previous version? I don't know how smoothly it would work in practice, but in theory at least it should have been possible to take sessions from the earliest versions of those apps and keep opening and resaving in the next version. And eventually losing the ability to open really old sessions is a big jump from not being able to open a single file from the previous version.
To send a session to a mixer who's not using Logic, just use Bounce Regions in Place. Doing a score printout is definitely a different story than other midi, and Logic's printout isn't as good as sibelius but it''s still easy to export to the other app. For midi editing I just don't agree with you (just because someone works faster on one app doesn't mean everyone does), for me Logic is faster and more thought out (and what isn't accurate?) not to mention that it has advanced midi features that are major timesavers. Does PT have all the midi features Logic does, you didn't answer that?
As I said, with third party instruments Logic does have a major advantage of being 64 bit. From what I hear most guys using big third party sample libraries have to use VEP or something similar otherwise PT runs out of memory.
As for endorsements, frankly I don't care and I'm skeptical about how much the various people use the various products anyway.
While I don't agree that logic is "junky, outdated, or redundant" (at least not any more so than PT and other apps are), as I said I DO want and expect major Logic updates in the future. I'm about as bleeding edge as you can get, I welcome major changes as long as they are for the better and tend to try out new versions as soon as I can get my hands on them. The notion that users don't want Logic to get better or are afraid of change is a straw man. Of course it should get better, all I'm saying is unlike FCX it should get better without losing features or scrapping compatibility. And it's a moot point because it shouldn't be necessary anyway. Logic is a 64 bit app now, major improvements should be possible without having to totally scrap it and create a new program from scratch.
PT still has some major limitations and old fashioned aspects - if they were to create a totally new app with a totally new interface that lifted those limitations but couldn't open earlier sessions and was missing key features you used, would you be OK with it?
Currently Being ModeratedJun 23, 2011 11:54 AM (in response to Mike Connelly)
I would continue to use the existing working tool, while keeping an eye on the new one with an eye to switching *when the features I needed were implemented*, or if I didn't like the new direction, stick with my existing tool, and maybe switch to something else at a later date.
File import is coming, Apple have said they will release a tool to make it happen.
Seriously - I've been playing with FCX and, yes, there are some things that are lacking, but there are some absolutely *wonderful* things in there workflow wise. FCP is a ten year old crusty Cocoa app based on an old gui and app framework and has some really clunky things about it.
You are simply not going to be able to rewrite a massive ten-year old app with *all* of the features reengineered and improved in a few years. It's too big a task.
I'm liking the direction FCX is going, and while I understand people's concerns - they simply shouldn't switch at this point, and wait and see how FCX evolves.
Apple will be watching the feedback, and working *hard* to make this new version awesome. We're not there yet, but the foundations are pretty solid.