1 3 4 5 6 7 Previous Next 134 Replies Latest reply: Dec 19, 2012 9:03 AM by r bryan Go to original post
  • 60. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    pepa_u Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Unfortunately, I need to have opened many apps. I do regularly switch between XCode, Netbeans, Matlab, Word, Excel, Safari, Mail, Skype. That's why I do have 8GB ram and that's why I have lot of windows open. I need quick and efficient way to switch between them.

     

    I switched to Mac last year from Windows. I was so happy with Macbook Pro and SL. It was so much better than Windows. But really, MC is hudge step back and too big compromise to simplify Mac OS X for beginners. And I am not speaking about such crazy things like key repeat, that does not work anymore in many apps under Lion!!

  • 61. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    rossen789 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Another argument for Spaces - I posted this in another discussion but didn't get any feedback.

    I briefly skimmed through this discussion but didn't see anyone note this - if someone did - excuse me.

     

    My macbook is circa 2007 - so gestures are not really an option for me.

    I used  ^+1,2,3,q,w,e for the six spaces I had and I had assigned applications for certain spaces.

    ^+1 used to be for Safari, ^+3 for iTunes, ^+6 for Mail and so on.

    I had the grid in my mind and it was a great way to get around.

    Now when I want to switch to Safari I find myself pressing ^+1 - but this functionality is gone with full screen apps.

     

    It seems like a simple thing - binding keyboard shortcuts to full-screen apps - and I was suprised it was not implemented.

  • 62. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    NorrinRadd Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I have submitted my bug report to http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

     

    I suggest everyone that feels likewise to do the same.  That is the only venue I know of to let Apple know what the problem is.

     

    pepa_u,

     

    You're an efficient OS X user.  OS X (SL) allowed great window management, and you take advantage of it.  That's what I believe to be the average OS X user… or at least someone who knows what the UI is capable of.  It's not only you, anyone who takes advantage of SL has the same needs.

     

    rossen789,

     

    I actually assumed that would still be present. :-(  If ctrl+# is gone, and grid layout is gone…. just reenforces further the mistakes which have been made.

     

    Caledai,

     

    All this extra work is not necessary in SL. 

    I have 8GB RAM because I want it and paid for it. Lion makes it **** hard to use it.

    Pruning your dock, setting your default spaces <-- We want LESS work. Not MORE work. 

     

    Like Joeblowinski said, I'd much more readily never use Lion and migrate to Ubuntu before I let Lion turn me into a micromanaging clown.

     

    Even with these micromanaging techniques, it still won't fix F9 and grid layout.  MC needs these important improvements.

     

    "Hidden windows" refers to the way MC hides all but one window for every app.  You continually prove you had no idea how to use SL.  If MC is hiding the window I'm switching to, and SL had the common sense to never do anything this wrong, MC is unusable.

     

    Your talk of launchpad, dock this, pref pane that... it's irrelevant.  We're talking about MC.  No one cares where you put your apps at.

  • 63. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    Caledai Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)

    Caledai,

     

    All this extra work is not necessary in SL. 

    I have 8GB RAM because I want it and paid for it. Lion makes it **** hard to use it.

    Pruning your dock, setting your default spaces <-- We want LESS work. Not MORE work. 

     

    Like Joeblowinski said, I'd much more readily never use Lion and migrate to Ubuntu before I let Lion turn me into a micromanaging clown.

     

    Even with these micromanaging techniques, it still won't fix F9 and grid layout.  MC needs these important improvements.

     

    "Hidden windows" refers to the way MC hides all but one window for every app.  You continually prove you had no idea how to use SL.  If MC is hiding the window I'm switching to, and SL had the common sense to never do anything this wrong, MC is unusable.

     

    Your talk of launchpad, dock this, pref pane that... it's irrelevant.  We're talking about MC.  No one cares where you put your apps at.

    Let me put i t this way.

     

    Less Work?  I call it being organised, and my reference to Dock / Launchpad was as a reference to how I use it as a workflow so its not irelevant (Or perhaps it is because it doesn't refer to your highly specialised workflows)  I don't want a desk full of clutter - but if you feel you need a cluttered workspace - feel free.   In my view - thats called waste.  I know some people work that way, I don't.    Do you clean up your desk at home, or do you leave every document you use on it - because you can magically hit f9 and see every document at once?

     

    Hidden Windows - so your refering to the fact that by default, when you are in MC it stacks all the windows of one applications - I don't call this hidden, I actually refer to windows hidden with Cmd H - which suprise surprise - was a function in SL and is still a function in L.   So please - don't view this as "continually prove you had no idea how to use SL..."  You don't know about my experience, I don't know about yours.

     

    They are only hidden in your perspective because you have dozens of windows open, rather then closing unnecssary windows or using tabs - as I said, I keep my machine clean and organised.   And even with MC in its default, when working on multiple documents in excel, numbers, safari - I never have that many windows that when its stacked I can't see them.   And If I was in a program and was trying to find windows for that app that might be across multiple spaces, I would just the a three swipe down - which does find all windows for that app.

     

    End result - You chose to upgrade to Lion, no one is stopping you from going back.    Unless you were stupid enough to upgrade to a new operating system on a .0 release without doing an evaluation on a test environment or a backup on your production machine first - in which case - I have no sympathy for you.

     

    An upgrade is an evolution of the system, things change - try being flexible enough to adapt, or work out what you can change rather then using this forum as a soap box - oh no, MC doesn't have a grid its the end of the world - everyone must stop using Lion..   because thats what I am seeing from any number of users as I browse through these forums.

  • 64. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    pepa_u Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Caledai, ok, maybe we are messy in our work, but I give you another example: I run some data analysis in Matlab. Quite often, my scrips are couple of hundred lines long, somtimes even more. Along the data processing inside the script is a number of parameters and dependencies I need to monitor. Hence, the script creates a number of plots. Eventough, I am grouping them into one window, there is some limit. Typically 3 to 6 plots per window. Yet still, the scrips generates ~10 windows, plus there is the editor and command line window of Matlab. So, only Matlab gives easily 12 windows. As the Matlab code calls some C++ libs that I develop, I need also XCode open, that can be another 2, 3 windows.

    I need also at least 2 or 3 Finder windows, because the data are in various (many) folders (must be, otherwise no one would ever find what is where even with Spotlight).

    I do logbook, so that's Word window - I need to copy the resulting plots from Matlab to the logbook, therefore I need to switch from Word to given Matlab window I need.... And here comes the problem! Matlab windows are on one big pile, therefore I have to switch to Matlab, then activate expose and then pick the right window. It used to be one action in SL!

     

    As I am not a genius, I also quite often need Safari window somewhere around to peek to programming documentation on the web.

     

    The question is, am I really messy and do I really have unecessary too many windows and apps open? Or, don't you think that there is number of users who do other tasks with the computer than web, email and write some document? :-)

     

    Computer is a very versatile tool, people use it in many, many different ways and hence the OS should be also versatile enough to let them do what they need. The challenge is to not only let them to do the job, but do it also efficiently. Apple did a great job in this ..... in Snow Leopard :-/

  • 65. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    Caledai Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)

    Well, just to prove I don't work with just two or three windows.

     

    When I am hitting the heavy documentation I have to do,

    • ARD with at least 3 or 4 clients controlled
    • Excel two or three excel documents
    • VMWare in Unity or on its own running  Win7 & Word/Visio 2010 2 or 3 windows open in each.
    • Mail - now full screen, and iCal (and I am someone who likes the new look too)
    • Safari and either Chrome or Firefox open, but I tend to prefer multiple tabs rather then windows - the main reason for different browsers is because Safari uses my default keychain items, whereas firefox is configured not to save - usually with several pages open on each to printers, switches etc in the network
    • Communicator &/or Adium for IM
    • Preview with the exports from older documens for reference
    • I generally don't have multiple finder windows open because I either use spotlight, or I have the documents, downoads, dropbox in the dock - set to list layout so when I need the documents, I can find them by file path.
    • I do however have terminal with several tabs open as well, prefering tabs over windows as above - either pinging devices, or using SSH to get information.

     

    Only has about half that today, and no vm..   But what was stuffing me around today - wasn't Lion - but a user account in AD and LDAP.

  • 66. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    NorrinRadd Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Since you like getting by with less than you had before, have fun.  The rest of us will push for an inclusive solution.

     

    http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

  • 67. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    klyuchko Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    Agree! I've done it at the same day when I joined this topic :)

    ---

    Dear Mission Control and Lion OS "lovers" :)

    Please don't consigner those words like something rude or unrespect to you, I don't have any problems to understand and accept your point of view

     

    I just to want to make very simple example/comparison why we don't like MC

    At the same time may be somebody will show me on my mistake(s), so all of us will learn a bit more

    So, here we go...

     

    For example, we have on a desktop 3 Excel windows and 5 Safari windows, and we need to switch from Excel #2 window to Safari #5 window

     

    In Snow Leopard I do the following:

    1. Put a cursor to Expose active corner (and see all windows of all apps)

    2. Choose necessary Safari window

    That's it, just 2 actions, 2 moves by mouse

     

    In Lion we shall do the following:

    Option A

    1. Put the cursor to Mission Control active corner

    2. Choose a pile of windows of Safari and hit Space (or make 2-fingers-up gesture on a trackpad) to expand the pile

    3. Choose necessary Safari window

    Option B

    1. Choose in Dock an icon of Safari

    2. Put the cursor to Expose active corner (and see all windows of this app)

    3. Choose necessary Safari window

     

    Result:

    in SL we have 2 actions while in Lion we have 3 moves for both options

     

    You can say: "C'mon dude! It's just one move more!"

    But for me this is 50%!!! more time on really simple operation, and this is clear disaster for a guys who need to switch a lot between windows in their work!

    That's it...

     

    Please correct me if I'm wrong and if somebody will show me how to do this operation in Lion with the same speed like in Snow Leo, I will really, really appreciate

     

    All the best, Oleg

  • 68. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    klyuchko Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    Another example, including different Spaces/Desktops

     

    For instance, we have 4 Spaces and in each space we have 3 Safari windows opened:

    Space #1 - general/world news

    Space #2 - Formula 1 news

    Space #3 - radio control models web sites

    Space #4 - motorbike web sites

    (actually this is some of my hobbies :))

     

    So by putting those windows by themes into different Spaces is a good idea for me, as I structurize my work and don't have a bloody mess of 12 Safari windows on a single Space

    And the task is to switch from a window on one Space to any other window on another one

     

    Snow Leopard:

    1. Put a cursor to Spaces active corner (and see all Spaces)

    2. Put cursor to another Expose active corner (and see all windows separately at all Spaces)

    3. Choose necessary window

     

    Lion

    1. Put the cursor to Mission Control active corner

    2. Choose necessary Space (and I have to remember in which desktop I have F1 news windows, while in Snow Leo and can see it by my eyes :))

    3. Put the cursor to Expose active corner (and see all Safari windows at this Space)

    4. Choose necessary window

     

    Result: 33% more time, and I don't like it!

     

    Finally, it's possible to make different examples and scenarios

    and if it will be 3 windows of Safari and 3 windows of Word on each space,

    in case of Snow Leo you will "spend" the same 3 moves to choose necessary window,

    but in Lion it will be even more actions: Mission Control -> Necessary Space -> Mission Control -> Expand a pile of necessary app windows -> choose a window = 5 moves = 67% more actions/time

     

    And again, correct me if I'm wrong

  • 69. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    RobbieSnr Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    But what about using keyboard shortcuts? Ctrl-Tab to get to the application you want, F10 to show the windows for that app and choose the one you want - or do this the other way around, F10 for Exposé in the current app then Ctrl-Tab will tab you through all the windows of your apps in turn.

     

    Some of you say you have so many different windows active that I find it difficult to see how you manage to select the window you want as it seems to me that the Exposé screen is going to be so cluttered - much better to select from just the windows of the app you want. I know there can be a problem with hidden windows and perhaps Apple needs to come up with a solution for that with MC.

  • 70. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    RobBT Level 1 Level 1 (75 points)

    In discussions about Mission Control vs. Spaces/Exposé I often see examples of multiple Safari windows. Don't you guys use tabbed browsing?
     
    Anyway, more on topic:

    klyuchko wrote:

     

    Option B

    1. Choose in Dock an icon of Safari

    2. Put the cursor to Expose active corner (and see all windows of this app)

    3. Choose necessary Safari window

    I think, giving the Safari Dock icon a right click shows you the option to choose your window. (It would in Snow Leopard.) That's a little shorter, if it's convenient at all is another thing.

     

    (Mind you, I'm not a Mission Control evangelist, as a matter of fact I stay with Snow Leopard untill that bad dream goes away.)

  • 71. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    klyuchko Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    RobBT, thank you!

    Honestly saying I didn't really know about this way, so good to know!

     

    PS

    I don't mind that you or anybody else is "evangelist" or "hater" of Mission Control :)

    This discussion is not to find out who we are and put a "labels", but discuss problems, appoint some questions to Apple (hopefully they read it), share our experience and probably to find some solutions which is hidden from some eyes and known by other guys

    Therefore any input it really good from my point of view and I would like to thank all you guys

  • 72. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    klyuchko Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    RobbieSnr, the problem with Cmd+Tab is that if you have many apps opened you have to push Cmd+Tab several times and finally it will be same 3 actions necessary if I understand you rightly, but it will check thanks

     

    By the way, as I said earlier I tried Lion once and than came back to Snow Leo

    But it would be nice to continue to experiment with 10.7

    Is it possible to make a partition on a hard drive (like in a Boot Camp for Windows) and install Lion into this partition and use both OS parallel?

  • 73. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    krofa Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I totally agree with your attitude klyuchko.

     

    I don't understand why some people choose to but heads over such issues and exchange minor / covert insults! it seems like a waste of energy for all parties to me.

     

    You know, if Apple doesn't give in to demands regarding MC, which is the much more likely outcome, we will have to learn to live with Lion. SL will probably not survive much longer than two years in terms of 3rd party software support so we'll eventually have to switch.

     

    I tried to get into Lion's way of doing things a bit more. I understand why some people might like MC. I guess for many people it makes Spaces more apparent and accessible, even if for veteran Spaces users it is a loss.

     

    I still find SL much more efficient in terms of window management. But in all honesty, I know I have tried to promote Spaces and Expose to many of my friends over time, and observed that it didn't stick with too many of them. Windows swithcers tend to just use the dock as a taskbar replacement. I guess, if people don't venture into exloring new functionality that hasn't been heavily advertised to them, it just doesn't register. Or some just don't like the added layer of "complication" - even if it feels like the opposite of complication to Spaces lovers. And I don't think Apple explained / advertised Spaces well enough. It came disabled by default. You couldn't assign gestures to it without 3rd party programs etc.

     

    BTW, I am not trying to say that all the people who weren't using Spaces were novice / unaware users or anything like that though! I'm sure there were advanced users as well, who just weren't impressed with Spaces, period. And so now they have a new alternative.

     

    I guess the best one can hope for is for Apple to iron out some consistency issues with MC. If in the mean time, Apple offers classic Spaces and Expose as an option, that would be our best bet. It's kind of late to expect Apple to give up on MC or totally rewrite it.

     

    Maybe some third party developer will come up with a Spaces alternative in time. Maybe that'll be even better than the classic Spaces! Who knows, I'd rather hope for the best...

     

    It's all good.

     

    krofa.

  • 74. Re: Mission Control Questions and problematics!!
    pepa_u Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Krofa, I would say that MC needs just few improvements and in my view it can make all (us) spaces users happy:

     

    1) make the desktop previews larger by zooming when the mouse is over them. MC does this already if many desktops are open, but the zoom level isn't very high and cannot be changed,

     

    2) allow drag and drop from preview windows,

     

    3) enable app expose in MC - again, similar thing is there - the scroll gesture above an app, but it does not work properly and lots of windows stil remain hidden

     

    4) enable the old "all app" expose in the previews to allow drag any windows from there. (the procedure would be: move the mouse above the desktop preview, it zooms, then do gesture for expose, see all windows, drag the one you need and drop it either to other preview or the active desktop)

     

    5) allow drag and drop of windows from desktop on one screen to desktop on another screen - this does not work at all and I do miss it a lot :-(

     

    6) show also minimized windows in MC

     

    I think that the standard users who do not need much sophistication will be happy, because they will have a simple MC still there and powerusers will have tools to work as efficient as in SL.

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