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Decision resources for or against WO

2589 Views 13 Replies Latest reply: Aug 3, 2011 11:37 AM by Habakuk RSS
Habakuk Calculating status...
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Aug 3, 2011 4:53 AM

We are eventually interested in using WebObjects for a new project. From Apple sites, I found absolutely nothing that would make it easy to decide PRO Webobjects in 2011. Everyhting I find is deprecated, docs are old, no reference on the website, yet they seem to "eat their own dog food" heavily.

 

So, where would one get up to date information on the weherabouts of WebObject development. Where can I finde arguments that show that WebObject is NOT a dying and deprecated technology from Apple. I simply don't find hard facts, only WO-fans that say "it's great and will be here for a long time". That is not convincing information.

 

Any hints, I'd appreciate very much.

 

cheers

  • Paul D Yu Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)
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    Aug 3, 2011 6:21 AM (in response to Habakuk)

    Habakuk

     

    WebObjects deployments will run on Lion Servers.  You would need to install Java and then get the Project Wonder wotaskd.woa and JavaMonitor.woa.  Once those things are in place a fully-embedded WebObjects+Project Wonder application will run just fine on Lion Servers.

     

    My company is using WebObject+Project Wonder on several products.  It works great.  The development environment is Eclipse 3.7 + WOLips.  The key to future WebObjects development is in Project Wonder.  Take a look at http://www.wocommunity.org.

     

    Paul

  • pascal_robert Calculating status...
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    Aug 3, 2011 6:22 AM (in response to Habakuk)

    Hi Habakuk,

     

    Since Snow Leopard, Apple removed the WebObjects deployment tools from the Server edition of OS X.

     

    Right now, Apple don't provide any WebObjects release outside of Apple. But WebObjects 5.4.3 is still available, and the community is working on Project Wonder, a collection of open source frameworks built on top of the core WebObjects frameworks. For example, Project Wonder have more current deployment tools (the deployment tools were open sourced in 2007), provides a REST framework (ideal to exchange data with iOS apps, including binary plist support) and bug fixes.

     

    We also have a annual conference about Wonder and WebObjects, this year it was in Montreal (Canada) at the beginning of July.

     

    Check out http://wocommunity.org for more details (we have a lot of screencasts there) and you can check Project Wonder on GitHub (https://github.com/projectwonder/wonder).

  • paul_lynch Calculating status...
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    Aug 3, 2011 6:47 AM (in response to Habakuk)

    Your post is curiously negative.  Assuming that it isn't just a troll...

     

    WebObjects has a very active and helpful community that is easily found.  See the earlier links in this thread.

     

    "Lion server does not support WebObjects" just means that the installation packages aren't provided; in fact, it runs perfectly well on most Unix platforms, including Lion.  As you may have already discovered, Apple statements often need a degree of interpretation.

     

    Current dcumentation isn't that hard to find on the Apple site: http://developer.apple.com/webobjects/ or  http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/documentation/InternetWeb/Referenc e/WO542Reference/index.html for the JavaDoc for the current version of WebObjects.

     

    I don't see "deprecated", and there is certainly a WO reference on the Apple site.

     

    With no further information, what we can't say is if this is the most appropriate technology for you.  But WebObjects is both alive AND kicking.

  • pascal_robert Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
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    Aug 3, 2011 6:50 AM (in response to pascal_robert)

    And I forgot one important link: the wiki. http://wiki.objectstyle.org

     

    The wiki do need a good cleanup, we have setup a documentation group about that.

  • prabier Calculating status...
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    Aug 3, 2011 6:55 AM (in response to Habakuk)

    Maybe some of us are WO fans but that's a pretty good thing to do development with a piece of passion.

     

    As Paul said, use Project Wonder. Don't make the mistake to avoid it. Our company also develop new services based on Wonder and I won't do it even by passion. It's business after all.

  • pascal_robert Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
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    Aug 3, 2011 7:55 AM (in response to Habakuk)

    About a road map, Apple never release road map about their products. They just announce things when they are ready to be announce (iOS 5, Lion, iCloud) but never what's next (iOS 6, etc.).

     

    For everything else, the "product" is now Project Wonder, not WebObjects. Apple people do contribute to Project Wonder (but they will never make a "real" statement about it). We are also in the process of registering a non-profit organization or foundation for helping Project Wonder, WOLips and other tools.

     

    For future operating systems support, it will go with what Apple says about Java. I know some people make some tests with OpenJDK 1.7 so WO and Wonder will work on Java 7 (and Oracle will release a Java 7 JVM for Lion later, Java 6 works just fine for now).

     

    But if you need a "entreprise" answer like Microsoft, Oracle or IBM can give, you should use something else. WebObjects outside Apple is now driven by the community, not by Apple. The community have a lot of applications to support and we will make it so that it continue to work for a long time.

  • prabier Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
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    Aug 3, 2011 8:04 AM (in response to Habakuk)

    I'm afraid that you won't find answers to any of this questions.

     

    • no roadmap from Apple
    • no information about the cost in the future

    WO is based on java so it's completely tied with the presence of java on Mac OS. But it's also true for any other java env.

     

    That's the reason why we insist to use Project Wonder because that the place to be (enhancements every day, new frameworks and it's open source).

     

    Every solution have drawbacks (.net has many flavors, J2EE can be hard to use and you have to choose the "good" frameworks among so many, javascript/node.js is pretty young, RoR has other problem like the big differences between v2 and v3,…)

     

    Maybe I can give you some clues to not choose WO:

    • if you don't know java (because you were considering ColdFusion as a possible solution)
    • if you don't develop with iOS (so you don't know the pattern like kvc, delegation, …)

    Not sure it helps you a lot but maybe a little bit.

  • pascal_robert Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
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    Aug 3, 2011 8:29 AM (in response to Habakuk)

    Project Wonder is on top of WebObjects, Project Wonder do need the core WebObjects frameworks from Apple. But the beauty of WebObjects structure is that it's so flexible and mature that you can extend or patch it a lot. Sure, things like rewriting EOF (the persistence part of WebObjects) would be a big task, but at the same time, the core frameworks are mature and everything is working well for members of the community.

     

    For example, Project Wonder added new looks for Direct2Web applications, a Ajax framework, a REST framework, etc. This is all work done by community members.

     

    The only downside is that we still have to comply to the WebObjects licence. The WebObjects 5.4.3 states that you must develop on a Apple branded machine (if you run Linux or Windows on a Mac, you still comply to the licence). For development, you can deploy on any OS that can run a JVM. According to this year's survey, more than half of the community is deploying their applications on Linux.

     

    As for the roadmap, we will try to make a roadmap on what we would like to see in Project Wonder for the next 12 months. That roadmap would be based on what the majority of the community would like to have. But it won't stop other non-roadmap contributions, Wonder is an ongoing project.

     

    BTW, my name is Pascal, not Robert :-)

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