14 Replies Latest reply: Jan 27, 2012 10:30 PM by MAC ATTACKED
pvcooper Level 1 Level 1 (20 points)

I have now done timing tests between a samba client on osx and a LINUX based NAS and on a fully 1Gbit Cat 6 all switches fully 1GBIT the speed performance to open a share is 2X as long on lion vs Snow Leopard. The file transfer of a 2Gbit file is 20% slower. Smaller files because of the Client not taking advantage of the various features in SAMBA is up to 30% slower. Please Apple tell us people who communicate using SMB and SAMBA to and from Microsoft networks why we should put up with this degredation. Tell us the truth. I use GPL licenses in the software, I ship to businesses and pay nothing. I will revert to snow leopard as well. Everybody on this list should know and I will spread the word that if you use microsoft or samba machines, apple has no solid upgrade fot you at this point and to stay away from Lion.

 

I love the full screen iOS like features but they should not have been packaged with this pi** poor Walmart version of microsoft networking IMNSHO.  I have 32+ years in Software Development, Some in the original SAMBA implementatopns. It looks to me like the Team who replaced SAMBA missed things and/or did not test the performance. This is probably why only some people seem to have speed problems with lion. If you are at home and only have apple machines using the AFP (Apple File Protocol) then you may find no speed problems (I have not done an exhustive test), however if a the replaced SAMBA client and/or

server software produced by pple gets involved you may see significant degradation. The first share on a machine is horrinly slow. I am faced with mounting shares leaving them open as long as possible along with coping files to edit to my desktop instead of editing them on the SAMBA share. These are actions I shiould not have to take.

 

Restore Mircosoft Networking performang. It is so bad I may refotmat my drive and remove lion on at least 2 machines. I see no excuse for this beign thrust upon loyal apple Apple users. I belierve that the legal restrictions may be outweighed by the poor SMB omplementation. Only time will tell. Hoe much will apple loose if their first attempt at iOS integration crashes and burns like VISTA.

 

                    -- The pastor of the church of no opinion. :-(

  • 1. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    baltwo Level 9 Level 9 (60,115 points)

    Ranting here serves no useful purpose, since these are user-to-user forums. If you want to report this issue to Apple's engineering, send a bug report or an enhancement request via its Bug Reporter system. To do this, register as an Apple Developer—it's free and available for all Mac users and gets you a look at some development software. Since you already have an Apple username/ID, use that. Once a member, go to Apple BugReporter and file your bug report or enhancement request. You'll get a response and a follow-up number; thus, starting a dialog with engineering.

  • 2. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    etresoft Level 7 Level 7 (24,270 points)

    In all likelihood, Apple focused their testing on genuine Windows file servers. All bets are off about Apple's reimplementation of SMB working with someone else's reimplementation of SMB. There may be some specific combination of client and server settings to make it work better - maybe not.

     

    It is pretty clear that Apple will not touch anything GPLv3 like recent versions of Samba. For Apple to go through the hassle of reimplementing it shows they know how important it is. They aren't rewriting Bash after all. It is going to take some time before Apple's version of SMB is as robust as Samba that has been under development and worldwide test for many years. I'm sure Apple didn't undertake this decision lightly. In Apple's legal opinion, the GPLv3 license is unacceptable - and Apple will take on anybody in the courtroom.

     

    You are free to download and install the latest version of Samba if you want. I'm sure many people would appreciate it in the true spirit of open-source. Just check with your lawyers before shipping it to anyone if you own any patents.

  • 3. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    deggie Level 8 Level 8 (46,495 points)
  • 4. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    pvcooper Level 1 Level 1 (20 points)

    This is exactly the place since apple answeres this question with a terse "its a GPL issue and legal" so effectively they said go away and close your mouth we are going to stick you with this anyway. The issues presented here are not a Rant they are factual issues that a user upgrading to LION will face. These are real and not imagined performance problems. I have never been a posted here and have had every .0 release of OSX.

    I have always posted credible posts and up until one previous release post have not needed to.

     

    These are serious and real issues which Apple has said by their answer will not be fixed in the short term I believe. I went through the years of SAMBA upgrading their software to play well with Microsoft. Apple has the ability to put out a version of SAMBA on Snow Leopard. To combine this with iOS changes is sad at best.

     

    Tell me, once Apple says they won't change back to a working set (even an older set of SAMBA software) that does not have these problems, where do I go to post the things users will face? Give me another place and I will be glad to leave this one. I never posted for most all previous releases and generally do not.

     

    I believe this rises to the exceptional call for Apple to do something right for people using LION who also use microsoft networking. This feels an awful like the release of Microsoft Vista but for differrent reasons.

     

    I have purchased more than 100 times on Apple. I love OSX since it came out nearly 12 years ago. It pains me to have to post these things. It is necessary since Apple has left most users no choice. I may port Samba to my machines to get back some of what I've lost. The Client stuff may be hard to fix as it is in the kernel in mount_smbfs.

  • 5. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    deggie Level 8 Level 8 (46,495 points)

    http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

     

    Apple

    1 Infinite Loop
    Cupertino, CA 95014
    408.996.1010

     

    sjobs@apple.com

     

    But posting here to other users will do nothing.

  • 6. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    pvcooper Level 1 Level 1 (20 points)

    I would be happy with a down release of SMB / SAMBA that works. The GPLv3 dis not exist on older versions of the SAMBA software. Until Apple had a truly suitable release of the SAMBA replacement they should not have made their users suffer. They are becoming more like Microsoft every day. I suspect a 100% Steve Jobs would not have made this decision to hmmer his loyal customer base. Makes me wonder what will Apple be like without him. I think I will go back to SL and stay there like my wife has done with Tiger. This will be my last post and although I love Apple and more importantly Steve Jobs, Without his direction I really wonder where they will head. I cannot fathom having to use a Microsoft Operating System. I am careful and with OSX have not needed even a set of virus software except on the Microsoft shares. These are now an Apple version which I have done the initial analysis and I believe the infotmation to be accurate and not a Rant. If people here believe I should "shut up and live with it" like Apple's answer then I will let them bury their head in the sand and I will not add to the factual discussion and go away.

  • 7. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    pvcooper Level 1 Level 1 (20 points)

    Now Ive sent a message to sjobs at apple, Called Apple and as others can attest to Apple wont admit there is a problem. Our only recourse is here and through word of mouth. All the people I told to buy Apple computers have been told that until Apple either fixes the SMB which was broken by removing Samba or restores some version of Samba working to end their upgrades at Snow Leopard. Deggie, you have told me I have to contact steve jobs. That was really constructive criticism. I am a 35 year Kernel expert in all Unixes and I have few avenues left for Apple to rectify the worst release they have come up with. I was caught napping because every other 10.X.0 release was manageable from the basic bug set and general usability standpoint. Lion cannot be put in that category as you have to work at it to get the stability and SMB networking needs no further comment. Too bad really because the UI changes are the best so far at being consistent with the iPad anf iPhone.

  • 8. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    Alan Edinger Level 4 Level 4 (1,615 points)

    1.     Since you have all this development experience and worked on some of the original SAMBA implementations, why don't you just compile your own tool set and load it up.

     

    2.     I hope you are also posting these thoughts over at Microsoft for Windows 7, XBox, since they them selves are so fond of SMB working correctly.

  • 9. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    pvcooper Level 1 Level 1 (20 points)

    1) I am a paraplegic with central pain. I run a software business I own and I generally do not have time to port Samba to Apple because it is one of the reasons I embraced 10.X of Apple. Apple was dying under the load of building great UI upper level software and building an OS before 10.X. Steve Jobs (I credit him because I have no inside information) was very smart in selecting a hardened UNIX OS so he could do other things Apple was and is good at.

     

    I'm looking into putting Samba on Lion but with Apple integrating and shipping their new netbiosd (funny how the man page still says nmbd -- the samba daemon) the task is not a simple as one would think. I am going to try to find a Snow Leopard machine to see how they changed the daemons, config files, plists and such. Then turn off the new netbiosd and make sure it doesnt partially return on a reboot. Install Sambs and make sure it reboots correctly. If you think it is a snap to replace netbiosd I would take your release.

     

    As far as Microsoft goes, Everyone who has tried to keep up with their changes has had many problems including the Samba team. After 25 years, the Samba team is pretty good at it. The fact is that Microsoft has broken their own implementation many more times than I can remember. Regardless of what one thinks of Microsoft, they are the SMB standard and all must pray at that altar. That is why I believe the netbiosd in 10.7 is premature.

  • 10. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    Alan Edinger Level 4 Level 4 (1,615 points)

    I made no pretense that it was a snap, easy or even straight forward.

     

    I did level the playing field philosophically in that you are a victim of an action and are blaming the worng party, and very heavily.

     

    But even you understand that Microsoft is swift at crippling their own systems, so thank you for that acknowledgement. But the culpret is more than that, in so much as the holder of the SAMBA keys has retracted its availability.

     

    As for searching for a Snow Leopard machine, if you have the disk space, why don't you just partition out your deive and install Snow Leopard and boot to that for research?

     

    -Alan

  • 11. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    pvcooper Level 1 Level 1 (20 points)

    I beg to disagree. It is the responsibility of Apple to put in a suitable replacement if they have a disagreement with samba developers. Netbiosd is not a suitable replacement. With Microsoft occupying 3/4 conservatively of the market Apple should have done better. When I was a kernel and Tool developer fot IBM's R&D group for UNIX, IBM did the same kind of thing with AIX and in the long run reverted to standards. Microsoft networking are standard tools. I guess I have never been slammed by Apple like Microsoft before. If this continues, Apple will not be the rising star anymore on ther computers. Maybe all they care about is iPhones and iPads.

  • 12. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    davidh Level 4 Level 4 (1,890 points)

    Apple can't just ignore the licensing terms - required terms of use as put in place by Samba.or for use of any current version of Samba.

     

    The old versions of Samba that Apple had beed using do not support Windows Vista nor - especially - Windows 7 for domain-style accounts (anything other than basic filesharing, ie, no domain-style profiles hosted on the server). That incompatibility was fixed in a version of Samba that Apple *can't* use.

     

    You don't have to like it, and I'm sure Apple would love for Samba to loosen their requirements, but it hasn't happened yet and isn't likely to.

     

    So rail against and complain to Samba instead of Apple. Changing this isn't in Apple's power to fix alone, wish it though you/one/we might.

  • 13. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    pvcooper Level 1 Level 1 (20 points)

    I have Lion working just fine with vista and Win 7. It may have been a poor prospective decision by the Samba team but Apple coud have used the version from Snow Leopard as I am. Apple made a major bo-bo, Face it.

    The samba server works and the new Netbiosd from Apple doesn't sometimes and when it does it takes 30 seconds to find a machine on a simple gigabit network.

     

    Since you say it doesn't work either you are drinking apple kool-aid and/or you ignorant of the truth. I thought this thread was over long ago when I asked Apple and their CS group denied that there was any problem. I have loved apples since OSX arrived. Lion is a very unlike apple release. Say whatever you want and live with the netbiosd. I will not.

  • 14. Re: PUT BACK SAMBA
    MAC ATTACKED Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    Agreed.  Apple doesn't sell software so it has no investment in whether or not it works.  It is in the business of selling hardware and licenses to use entertainment media.  I can't say my first experience has been a good one.  I have no personal investment in MAC.  I stumbled upon my MacBook Pro because I was tired of buying poorly constructed HP, DELL, ACER and Toshiba laptops.  I have found Lion to have a lot of excentricities that are not intuitive (to me) as well as a few allarming security issues.  All I can say is that my MacBook does make a great Win 7 machine and I am content to use it as such.  I cannot find any advantage to using Lion over Windows 7.