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Does anyone recommend OS X Lion?

188959 Views 2,325 Replies Latest reply: Nov 2, 2011 1:54 PM by Philly_Phan RSS
  • eschaal Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 7, 2011 11:47 AM (in response to Csound1)

    To backup or not backup does not really go to the core issue here of whether or nor we should recommend migration to LIon.

     

    Personally, I backup (almost to the extreme). Last year, my backup disk and my iMac died in quick succession. Now I have multiple backups in multiple ways. That is the way I work, so telling me that any problems I have with Lion is due to failure to backup is like saying that failing to wear a seat belt means that any damage from an accident is the fault of the passenger not wearing a seat belt.

     

    My problems with Lion were not about lost data, but lost functionality. I didn't lose data, I lost functionality, and that lost seems to be due to poor design in Lion, conscious decisions that the user really didn't need functions to act as they did before.

     

    By the way, don't blame my problems of failure to fix disks or permissions, because fixing them before an upgrade is another thing I do religiously.

  • Alex Zavatone Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 7, 2011 12:15 PM (in response to Michael Ruiz2)

    If Disk Utilities should be run before an upgrade, then the Lion Installer should be friendly enough to do a scan first and recommend a permission repair.

     

    This is a painfully easy logic step to take and a fairly easy choice to post to the user.

     

    Shame on you Michael.  So many people here are playing the rold of apologist or denialist of any problem in the OS at all.  Apple's original premise behind their GUI was that you should not have to be a plumber to be able to use your water faucets, not be an electrician to use a light switch and should not have to be a computer scientist to be able to USE a computer.  

     

    It appears that you forgot (or are not aware) of this precept.

     

    For people who complain about PPC apps?  One would assume that the user would know their apps and what they run on (I assume they would), but it's easy to see that they may not be that skilled.  In this case, where upgrading to Lion removes all PPC functionality, a scan of the application folder (from the installer) for incompatible architectures is EASY to do from an xCode installer where the incompatible apps could be identified and flagged, therefore warking the user before installing Lion and removing functionaity they might need.

     

    Sweet jesus man.  Apple PREACHES ease of use! 

     

    Remember "it just works"?  Do you? Apple is literally telling their users that they do not need to do the research!

     

    Solutions to many of the problems that you mention are EASILY accomplished by any competent programmer and would be wise to include by any competent application designer.

     

    Don't be an apoligist or denier when your favorite software manufacturer effs up.  Call a spade a spade, hold them to their own standard and get the broken (or poorly designed) junk fixed.

     

    If you deny that the problem exists, you're not going to make it go away.

  • markhud Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 7, 2011 1:29 PM (in response to Alex Zavatone)

    Alex Zavatone wrote:

     

    Sweet jesus man.  Apple PREACHES ease of use! 

     

    Remember "it just works"?  Do you? Apple is literally telling their users that they do not need to do the research!

     

     

    Well said Alex, the whole point of Lion so it seems, is to bring Apple users together be they iPhone, iPad or Mac users with a similar operating system. That being the case, it shouldn't be necessary to undertake such lengths before upgrading, after all IOS users cannot verify disk permissions, clone disks etc. ok they can back up to iTunes but that's it. It is clear that Apple are earning more money from mobile devices and thats the direction that they want to go with Lion, fine but make the upgrade work for the common man, we are not all computer experts, nor do we have the time to spend debugging for Apple, some of use use our Macs for work and must have reliabilty and consistancy to our workflow, not what we get with Lion.

     

    And before the backup boys start slagging me off, I have an 8GB Mini 2010 that I have partitioned the drive on, cloned my SL partition, installed a clean copy of Lion to the other partition and migrated my apps over to Lion, and whilst it seems to be working fine, I still don't fined Lion particularly intuative, autosave and versions are a nightmare when trying to edit photographs or video and just eat up storage.

     

    So in short, if you know what you are doing, yes go ahead install Lion, but don't upgrade your SL system, keep it on its own partition, that way you can revert to SL when you need to work with your Mac and use Lion if you want to play with it....

     

    Personally I will keep my Lion partition to run with iCloud when it arrives, as it will no doubt be a step backwards if you try and use it with Snow Leopard. Best of both worlds, Long Live MobileMe..... but that's another thread.

  • Michelasso Level 1 Level 1 (65 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 7, 2011 1:58 PM (in response to genebeley)

    genebeley wrote:

     

    I bought Lion for a birthday present for my 13-year-old grandson in Morgan Hill.  When he downloaded it onto his MacBookPro, the computer crashed and lost thousands of dollars of software that I got him when I first gave him the computer last year.  When my grandson and his mother took it to Apple's Genius Bar yesterday in Morgan Hill, they told him they fixed it, but that his MacBookPro's hard drive will probably go bad soon.  Big coincidence!

     

    [...]

     

    BEWARE of using Lion.  I think I'll see about getting our money refunded on this sour apple.

     

    I just had my internal WD Scorpio HDD failing yesterday. The last thing I thought (but I admit it: the idea came) has been to blame Lion. Also because its twin hard drive failed under Snow Leopard. Instead I blame the nasty globalization with this idea of producing everything in developing Countries to reduce their costs keeping the retail prices unaltered. But since everything fails after 2 and 1/2 years our costs are doubled.

     

    Blaming Lion is like when the PS3 gets any update. Every time there are a bunch of people yelling in the Playstation forum that the new update fried their PS3, usually the Blu Ray drive (changed 2 of them as well myself). They do not consider that the rate of failure is pretty high and out of 50 million consoles, just 1% would make half a million consoles failing.

     

    When I installed Snow Leopard I've got angry because the MacBook was always heating, with the fan at top speed. I thought it was due to the 64 bits applications. I fixed it only two years later. I discovered I had to open my MacBook, clean the fan grid (and God if that was dirty!! A strip of burned dust 3-4 mm thick) and replace the thermal paste. Because there wasn't any thermal paste on the top of the CPU/GPU. All spread (and thick) in the borders. Done the operation before installing Lion it felt like new. Well, I must say that with SL it still heats more often than with Lion, but now it is acceptable. Snow Leopard just made the thermal problem more obvious.

     

    The bottom line is that there will always be electronics going to fail. Big numbers and Murphy's law make them failing when it seems most inconvenient. To blame software for hardware failures is generally speaking a bad practice. Unless we are talking about device's firmware updates, sure. But those modify the way the electronics function and they never come with an OS upgrade.

     

    Said so, I personally recommend Lion but for mission critical system I'd suggest to wait for the update 10.7.2. And to do a full backup before to install it... 

  • Michael Ruiz2 Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 7, 2011 5:18 PM (in response to Alex Zavatone)

    First off I am not an Apple Apologist. I am a Technology Realist.

     

    You are probably right that someone at Apple should have forced a disk repair and permissions repair, for those not knowledgeable enough to do it (and I suggest you send feedback arguing for the inclusion of a disk repair and permissions repair built into OS installers), but that's where you leave reality. Find me any official Apple document -- especially one tied to the marketing of Lion -- that tells users that they do not need to know anything to do an update, or discourages research. One. And I'll concede that point. (But even then, when did you belive everything someone said about a product they wanted you to buy when you knew they'd make money off you for belieiving it, unquestioningly?)

     

    Look, every manufacturer of software has bugs they cannot foresee. But that doesn't excuse them from fixing them when they pop up. But what you seem to be saying is that their mistake (when you can't even prove it was their mistake by virtue of millions of lion installs going flawlessly) and the user should take no responsibility.

     

    That is a great disservice to anyone reading these forums for the expansion of their knowledge. It should be drilled into everyone's head that they should take responsibility for  their actions. The only exception is gross negligence on the part of the other party -- which clearly is not the case here. I'm not here because I have little sympathy, as some do, for people that lose data. I have a great deal of sympathy, because I have experienced data loss before. The difference is that I learned from my mistake and haven't lost data in well over 15 years.

     

    My point being: I am trying to help people who have lost data, not experience that again. And those of you that do know better or have not lost data, yet defend the "blame apple" view. What does that accomplish? It certainly doesn't educate other MacUsers as to what to do in the future. Their data is most likely gone, unless they get a forensic tool to recover the data. So, moving forward, we as responsible advanced and expert users should help them learn and so they do not make the same mistake in the future. That's my entire approach. I am not like those people laughing at you, being elitist snobs (I hated those people when I was a MS-DOS user. And I still remember that I at one time did not know what I know about OS X now. Everyone starts somewhere. To be a jerk about it only makes you feel better, but ultimately you generate more ill will that can come back to bite you in the ***.)

     

    Now, turning to the "dumbification" of the OS: I am not talking to people with legitimate gripes on the stripping of advanced features. They have every right to complainand send apple suggestion to reintroduce features. And I'm with you. If they know how to build a sound rational argument, Apple will probably capitulate. Apple is not unreasonalbe when presented with a reasonable argument that doesn't directly conflict with its plans for future OS features. I have been a long time advocate for "user levels" that can be used to unlock more and more advanced features of the OS, as a person progresses.

     

    I myself have a few issues with OS X Lion. One involves locking down Apple Apps to the Application folder. It really ****** me off, but once I had a few minutes to look at how they did it, it 10 minutes I was able to unlock them and move them. I know I'm doing that at my own peril, but if an update of an Apple App fails, I know how to fix it in a few seconds.

  • Rich Hayhurst Level 1 Level 1 (115 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 7, 2011 6:31 PM (in response to jarturoe)

    Well, I've read a lot of this thread, and there are some valid points.  I think it's useful to also talk about the things we like about Lion.   I like Mail (conversations) and vertical orientation + options to revert to the old model, I like the speed and clean feel of Safari.  I like on occassion, full screen view. I like the way we can download it and I like the way it did not do any harm to my three machines.  I don't like the loss of Quicken 07 but I really like Quicken Essentials. Drop the iCal and Address Book leather retro-interface and I would -really- be positive on this upgrade.

  • Bob Jacobson Level 1 Level 1 (115 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 8, 2011 2:07 AM (in response to Michael Ruiz2)
    Oh and because I know he'll speak up "what about my Air destruction!" Your computer fried after you closed the lid after the crash, expecting it to go to sleep.  What part of your brain cannot comprehend that the sleep function was being controlled by the OS which you knew had frozen? I literally know 11 year olds that would have known to reboot.

     

    In this excerpt from Michael's overly long bleat, I think he refers to me.  I seem to be the only Air user crazy enough to have gone with Lion out of the gate.  We Air users tend not to favor iPads so Lion aka iOS may not be a big seller among my crowd. 

     

    As I reported when my eight-month-old machine's logic board was crisped by an overactive CPU driven wild by Lion, a fact attested to by my Apple-Certified Tech and Genuine Guru, there were many people at that time having similar problems with Lion, according to the same tech.  (Many still are: examine the humongous forum on Lion reducing battery life and causing Macs to run superhot.)  After replacing my singed SSDs, my tech flew the Air to Apple Engineering in Austin.  Apple replaced it without a word.  The delivery slip receipt said simply, "Continual reboots. Replaced logic board."  My tech assumed they were seeing plenty of these maulings and were well stocked with parts to repair whole computers, as they did mine.

     

    As for the scenario Michael posits for my machine's destruction, it's his invention.  I have no idea where he got it from.

     

    Wish I was 11 again. That's when a girl gave me my first real kiss.

    MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.6.8), Apple User Since 1981
  • Michelasso Level 1 Level 1 (65 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 8, 2011 1:56 AM (in response to jarturoe)

    I'd like to point out that when upgrading any OS X release the repair file permissions for system files before installing is nearly useless for the simple reason that the OS installation overwrites or removes the old system files. In other words the old OS totally disappears and the new one is copied as it is in the installation disk. So after the installation the OS is [supposed to be] clean.

     

    This doesn't apply to the applications and users files permissions. But if they are wrong after the upgrade they were wrong before. Still, doing a repair file permissions after the installation should fix any issue caused by them, and it is a typical maintenance procedure to be done once in a while.

  • Bob Jacobson Level 1 Level 1 (115 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 8, 2011 2:21 AM (in response to jarturoe)

    After reading back through the pages (and pages and pages) of this forum topic, I have this question:  there's been a lot of talk about why Lion's not so bad, and how to make it work as good as Snow Leopard again, but not so much talk about why it's so good.  So...why is it so good?

     

    One reason often given is Lion's "low" $30 price and convenience.  Yes, I paid for Lion in the Apple Store in about 15 seconds.  And it was cool how the little icon flew into my dock.  But then my download on a 20 MBit/sec (medium-fast) cable took over two hours and left me with no hard media for a reboot. 

     

    When Snow Leopard came out, I drove to my Apple Store and bought a five-pack for $135, which came to $27 an installation.  It came with a disk and took less than an hour to install. 

     

    Lion was just easier to buy, it turns out.

     

    So what else is so good?

    MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.6.8), Apple User Since 1981
  • eschaal Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 8, 2011 2:05 AM (in response to Bob Jacobson)

    I like a few features of Lion, like the improved Mail, but this is counterbalanced with some negatives (like the inability to run some software and some flackiness in the Finder and Preview. Over all, I don't dislike Lion enough to remove it from my iMac, but I don't like it enough to install it on my MacBook Pro or my MacBook AIr.

  • Michelasso Level 1 Level 1 (65 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 8, 2011 2:21 AM (in response to Bob Jacobson)

    Bob Jacobson wrote:

     

    As I reported when my eight-month-old machine's logic board was crisped by an overactive CPU driven wild by Lion -- a fact attested to by my Apple-Certified Tech and Genuine Guru -- there were many people at that time having similar problems with Lion  (Many still are: examine the humongous forum on Lion reducing battery life and causing Macs to run superhot.)

    The battery life, yes, it is a Lion problem caused by high CPU usage. The overheating, not a chance. Any system must be designed to be able to run constantly at 100% CPU for years. If it overheats and even worse, fries any component, there is a problem with the hardware. Or worse, the machine's design. Having opened my white MacBook, as I wrote in the other post, to replace the thermal paste I can assure you that in the Apple's assembly lines they do a terrible job when it comes to it. My MB now runs always below 60 C during normal usage, before it went up to 95C (and it was using Snow Leopard by the way). If you check in Internet like I had to do you'll see that mine was and is a common problem. Actually the MBA as well are (were?) known for a overheating issue since Snow Leopard. So much for Apple quality.

     

    Apple replaced your components without a word because it was under warranty. Otherwise you would have had some difficulties at least to get it repaired "without a word", but more likely an overcharged service for something that was malfunctioning since the beginning.

  • genebeley Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 8, 2011 2:44 AM (in response to varjak paw)

    I'll verify, too, that the older Microsoft Office does not work.  To update my original rant about buying LIon for my 13-year-old grandson's birthday, which seemed like a bargain at just under $30, it has become a very expensive birthday gift because today I had to buy him a new Microsoft Office package from the San Jose Oakridge Apple store for $150 to replace the Excel and Word programs needed by his mother for her work, as she also uses the family MacBookPro I bought them several years ago.   Before leaving our Stockton home, I grabbed the original, older student-teacher Microsoft Office version installed on their computer and drove 100 miles to Morgan Hill, only to learn it did not work.  I drove into the San Jose Apple store to confer with them, and was told it just won't work on the Lion system.


     

    All the comments here off my original complaint have been very stimulating and thought provoking.  I have owned Apple computers since the very first one.  Although I've owned an amusement game company, entertainment robot company, and a community newspaper in Morgan Hill, CA, and learned my software skills as a temp at Apple in 1984, I never considered myself a "teckie". Like many other Apple users, I've been in the creative field and have been a strong Apple supporter. But I've always hired professional Apple technicians to fix any problems.  I just don't recall such problems upgrading to any previous system and there have been many changes since the early 1980s.  It's always been an easy task that never gave me problems. Also, I admit I'm spoiled by Apple's superiority and ease of operation for non-technical people like myself, which has been a huge secret to their success and loyal following.


     

    How many of you are aware that Apple currently does not give you a system disk today... we only were given two I-Tune gift cards of $15 denomination each and told to download the Lion program off the Internet?   ( It was impossible to render the exact amount of the purchase so it cost us an even $30)

     

    I will probably now buy my grandson an external hard disk to copy all his applications onto an external disk in case the internal disk crashes again.  I did learn that Apple was able to recover most of the other programs when my daughter took their MacBookPro to the Apple store last night.  I was disappointed to learn, though, that they weren't able to recover the i-Movie program that my grandson used. Of course, I could not reinstall the program today, because that disk would have reinstalled Leopard.


     

    I was amused by those who criticized grandparents for not doing back ups. (Once again, we live 100 miles away from my grandson).  Hey, most grandparents today have no interest in speaking "Lion" or other advanced programs, just like millions of seniors like to hang on to our "dumb" flip phones because that's all we need and can't afford to spend another $40-$60 a month for the internet service on the phone in addition to the home service on Social Security checks and meager interest gained today from CDs. 

     

    I'm writing this on my antique G-4 laptop that still works great for writing emails, occasional national magazine articles, processing and sending photos to editors, and doing the basics for my limited usage these days.  For my Delta boating home movie hobby, I bought a separate 17" MacBookPro to dedicate that mostly to making movies with the simple i-Movie software that does everything I need for now. I definitely am not buying Lion for any of the three Mac laptops in our own home.


     

    Most of us would like to see the geniuses at Apple focus on increasing the speed in which a computer turns on.  Now THAT would be progress!  By now, I would think they would turn on instantaneously and work as good as any other appliance like our toaster or microwave where any dummy can operate them without having to do backups, read fine print manuals on a screen, and not crash an entire system when a new system is downloaded. 

     

    On my trip to the Apple San Jose Oakridge store, the young representative there told me they could not do a refund on the Lion system.  Fortunately, my grandson said he likes the features and will stick with it.  If it were only me, I would have pressed for a refund, and stuck with the previous Leopard system that just WORKS like my reliable Honda Civic Hybrid.   But again, I'm 71, and my grandson is 13, and he represents the future, so we can all agree to disagree and live in harmony. Different ages have different ideas on the definition of progress!

    -Gene Beley, Stockton, CA

  • Bob Jacobson Level 1 Level 1 (115 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 8, 2011 2:42 AM (in response to Michelasso)

    The battery life, yes, it is a Lion problem caused by high CPU usage. The overheating, not a chance. Any system must be design to be able to run constantly at 100% CPU for years. If it overheats and even worse, fries any component, there is a problem with the hardware. Or worse, the machine's design. Having opened my white MacBook, as I wrote in the other post, to replace the thermal paste I can assure you that in the Apple's assembly lines they do a terrible job when it comes to it. My MB now runs always below 60 C during normal usage, before it went up to 95C (and it was using Snow Leopard by the way). If you check in Internet like I had to do you'll see that mine was and is a common problem. Actually the MBA as well are (were?) known for a over-heating issue since Snow Leopard. So much for Apple quality.

     

    Apple replaced your components without a word because it was under warranty. Otherwise you would have had some difficulties at least to get it repaired "without a word", but more likely an overcharged service for something that was malfunctioning since the beginning.

     

     

    Too complicated, Michelasso.  Look, if your hardware component doesn't fail running a certain OS for eight months -- never overheating -- and then burns up the next day after you install a different OS, Occam's Razor says it's the second OS interacting with the hardware that did it. Or in short, since the hardware just sat there, it was the OS that did it.  (Simple logic -- no pun intended, Dead Logic Board, R.I.P.) 

     

    I question your assertion that a CPU must be able to run at 100% "for years."  Maybe hours.  Maybe a day.  If it's a brute, maybe a few days.  Then finis.  (Moreover, what if it's driven to run at 125%?)

     

    You bet it's warrantied, although in my experience warranties aren't always honored without an argument.  Apple made both the hardware and the software.  If it tested sufficiently, the incompatibility would be known.  It's not like I tried to run Lion on a John Deere back-hoe.  The same goes for the overheating. Hey, I'm an Apple devotee.  Everyone makes a mistake now and then, includng Apple. For you it was defective thermal pasties, for me Lion attacking my CPU.

    MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.6.8), Apple User Since 1981
  • Michelasso Level 1 Level 1 (65 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 8, 2011 2:52 AM (in response to Bob Jacobson)

    Bob Jacobson wrote:

     

    I question your assertion that a CPU must be able to run at 100% "for years."  Maybe hours.  Maybe a day.  If it's a brute, maybe a few days.  Then finis.  (Moreover, what if it's driven to run at 125%?)

    No, no. 100% constantly for ages. That's what any serious server (AIX, Solaris, HP/UX) must be able to do. But also any gaming machine. As long as the temperature stays below the overheating limit it's fine. And it does if the fans are properly designed. Idle CPU is wasted CPU. It can go up to 125% only if the OS tweaks with CPU clocks and similar. But I seriously don't believe this is the case, the OS doesn't care for sure. Only specialized apps do that (probably bypassing the OS). And as I mentioned few times, if Lion was to blame, why my MacBook still has an [much] higher CPU usage with Snow Leopard?

     

    Then think: if you kept your Lion installation in your HDD after changing the components, and now it works.. How could it be a sw fault? HW incompatibility? I doubt it. Faulty HW is the most probable conclusion.

  • Michael Ruiz2 Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 8, 2011 3:07 AM (in response to Michelasso)

    You're forgetting that repairing the disk also rewrites parts of the HD's directory file. Repairing permissions is just a precaution, but can save you from "unable to replace/move/do anything to a file" errors that can stop your install.

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