1 2 3 4 Previous Next 45 Replies Latest reply: Nov 13, 2011 12:02 PM by eltjofromu Go to original post
  • 15. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    hotwheels 22 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi.

     

    I'm really sorry if these questions sound the same as ones that you helped me with a week or two ago. I know that must be really frustrating and I want to really and sincerely apologize for that. Again, I know this must be frustrating. Imagine what it is like trying to learn the software!

     

    Anyway, I think they are different questions and that maybe they aren't worded in a way that allows you to see they are different?

     

    In any case, sorry for the frustration (and the mixup) and thanks for the earlier help!


    Goodwill.

  • 16. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    hotwheels 22 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi Kirby,

     

    Thank you for this post. Please accept my sincere and real apologies for causing confusion and for the multiple questions.

     

    I see you are correct and I have used "folder" above when I meant "Project". Again apologies.

     

    I think it will also help clear up confusion is that I cannot use a 1 SHOOT - 1 PROJECT methodolody in my database. These images are coming almost 90% from a windows database which means they are now organized by THEME. Each THEME is a Project.

     

    One other consequence of this is that there are multiple instances (files or images or however you suggest I explain this) of the exact same image in my database. In some cases these images have different names and in some cases they have the same name because in windows you simply - and literally - put a file in a folder where you need it. You then put it somewhere else again and you in fact may /rename/ the exact same image depending on where it is going or what it is doing. I assume you want me to say that I have "multiple versions" or something but in the context of Aperture this seems confusing and inadequate.

     

    I have the same image in the same project a number of times and I also may have this same image in a different Project or Projects. Each of these "images" (or versions) obviously have (or "reference" or "are") different masters because they were imported independently even though they effectively represent the same image file.

     

    So, I have images in my database that are sorted by THEME, not SHOOT. I also have images in my database which /look/ the same. These could be in the same Project or these could be in different Projects.


    Does this make sense?

     

    I am trying to do two things.

     

    1. I am trying to delete "duplicate images" without trashing the Albums or Slideshows that I have set up.

    2. I am trying to finalize the database's organization.

     

    In this context, I am wondering - for current and future use - whether it will be possible to put the same - I would call this a "master-version" but I understand this is poor usage. I guess then you want me to call it a "version" - I have the same image represented by different versions in two different Projects. I am in the process of deleting these.

     

    I am asking and wondering if I can I somehow duplicate a Version in a way that allows it to "reside" in another Project. These are currently THEME based Projects and there are some Versions that would be helpful to have in two or more different Projects because they relate to each of these project instead of simply one of them.

     

    I realize I have to make a decision at some point about whether I want to move to a SHOOT based organization for all Imports in the future - but this does not appear to be something that is going to happen retroactively.

     

    Othere than the fact that I know you think I should have set up a 1 Shoot - 1 Project methodology, and that you may think I am out of luck, does that make sense to you?

     

    Anybody that got this far had to deal with the same issue and solved it in a productive way?

     

    Thanks,

     

    Jon

  • 17. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    CalxOddity Level 3 Level 3 (680 points)

    Jon,

       The Theme approach to organising your images in Aperture appears to suffer a fatal flow in that, as you observe, an image is not necessarily exclusive to a single them.

     

    This is why Aperture has very powerful keywording and search functions.  Some of my images have a dozen keyword and can be collated with like images on the basis of all or some of those keywords.

     

    For example:  I take a photo of a kangaroo silhouetted against a sunset whilst at a family barbeque during our summer vacation.  O noes!!! Where to put it?

     

    Well, it gets placed in my 2011 Summer Vacation Project, and receives keywords of fauna, kangaroo, vacation, family, sunset, Australia, Canberra etc etc.  Which "theme" does it have?  All of them....

     

    Note also that the reason you may have duplicate masters showing in different Projects is that they were stored in different locations in your Windows machine, and therefore are regarded as unique instances by Aperture.  I had this when I migrated from Windows and had to spend some time reconciling the duplicates.  Mind you, there weren't that many as I spent some time fixing the wordt of it before migrating.

  • 18. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    Kirby Krieger Level 6 Level 6 (11,915 points)

    The answer is to use Albums for "themes" -- but Jon has been led to that rich bucket nineteen times by five different guides, and still he paws the ground compulsively, and refuses to drink.

  • 19. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    hotwheels 22 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Kirby.

     

    As I have been saying this is not a realistic solution. I have 40 GB of images sorted by theme.

     

    I can't magically go back and tell them to go back 10 years and sort themselves magically into shoots.

     

    What exactly is your proposal for my making projects sorted by themes into albums sorted by themes?

     

    I'd love to work out a full solution which is why I am posting after all...

  • 20. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    CalxOddity Level 3 Level 3 (680 points)

    Indeed - I should have added that I have several smart albums for themes I frequently work with...  but at this stage I think that might be a bridge too far.

  • 21. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    CalxOddity Level 3 Level 3 (680 points)

    Okay,

         Once more unto the breach....

     

    I could maintain a set of highly elastic themes even under the most absurd construct.  Suppose every single image was stored on the hard Disk in a folder called Fred.  Also supposed each image in that folder was called Fred-1 through to Fred-65389.

     

    I import them into Aperture into Projects named "Freds 1-2000", "Freds 2001-4000", "Freds 4001-6000" and so on.

     

    I then assign keywords to each image from my *previously defined* keyword taxonomy.

     

    Thereafter, I have a range of almost infinitely variable themes to choose from through searching.

     

    Are you using keywords????

  • 22. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    hotwheels 22 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi. Thanks.

     

    Well - so how did you import your photos from the windows PC? Did you jump right into Metadata and Sorts and Filters and somehow get this sorted by querying the metadata an organize them by into multiple Projects by date? Did you have someone do this for you? Did you just bring them in by windows "folder theme"? Did you do one big bulk dump into a Project and move along? I mean, do you have a "pre-Aperture Windows Images" folder with all your pre-Aperture imports?!!!

     

    The problem is not what I am going to do once I get the database organized.

     

    As you suggest, it may be to leave each Import alone as a Project and to tag these items. If you are willing we can discuss this once I get to this point. Once you hear my needs I am not sure exactly that tagging the Versions is necessarily any easier than dragging them into a themed Project but perhaps you are right that this is of longer term benefit.

     

    But this is beside the point.

     

    I have ten years of images that are not ordered by shoot (40 or 50 GB) and they never will be ordered by shoot unless you have some magical solution to make them sort themselves out like this. I have Projects sorted by themes and I am trying to figure out how to finalize this sort and then move on to how I handle future Imports.

     

    It sounds to me like I have to finish the sort as I have started it - and I don't see any other way to do this unless you have a great solution - and that I would export any image I want in two "theme projects" and then import it again (thereby putting it in two Projects).

     

    I'm sure others have faced this same situation. I can't imagine that everyone that has aperture has all their digital images sorted by 35mm roll and/or digital shoot and can simply import them roll by roll or shoot by shoot...

     

    Anyway, I'd prefer to get help on the forum to the extent you can help as these are real and practical needs I have to finalize.

     

    Thanks!!

  • 23. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    hotwheels 22 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi Calxoddity.

     

    Thank you.

     

    I know this is very powerful software and I know my situation is not normal. I also realize I have a tendency to ask a question when it comes up while I am working. I suppose I could not post the question but some of these issues are hard to manage just by experimenting.

     

    Suggestions like Flagging or Coloring all my images in my Albums was like pure genius for me and it made the work (days and days worth) very manageable.

     

    Also, I know you have a wealth of knowledge for this kind of management and I'd love not to make it seem like I am not grateful for the help. At the same time discussions on forums can get a little tricky.

     

    In any event. I am not using Keywords. I don't believe I am at a point to use Keywords or that I can use Smart Folders just yet but I know both of these are on the horizon. These feel more like fine tuning an already organized set of images unless I am missing something.

     

    I am still in the process of getting all the images that are "same" into the same Project and then organizing these so that "like are with like" and then I have to turn on Metadata so that I can make sure when I delete the duplicates that I am doing this with the low resolution image if they are not identical.

     

    I have 40 GB of images. I can't assign keyword to each image from what I am understanding. I mean, if I could do some kind of Filter Search and Tag all the results with a keyword that might work but I can't go through each folder and add a keyword to the images.

     

    Right now I am just moving similar images to the same project and deleting the duplicates.

     

    Does that make sense?

     

    Goodwill.

  • 24. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    chacro Level 1 Level 1 (50 points)

    If you still have the original files in their theme folders you can easily keyword at import.... IF you are willing to ditch your current mess and start again you *could*:

     

    create a metadata import preset with keyword field

    import one themed folder and apply the theme keyword

    import the next folder with it's theme keyword into the same project

    and so on

     

    At the end of that you'd have all your photos in one project ( 'old stuff'), each with it's theme held in keyword.

    Then you make a smart album for each keyword and everything sorts itself.

     

    Seems to me you will have re-created your old themed folder scheme in Aperture, and with no manual sorting required. How much work this would be will depend on how many themes you have.

     

    Just an idea.

  • 25. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    CalxOddity Level 3 Level 3 (680 points)

    40GB of images to assign keywords to?  Pfft!  Been there, done that.  All completed. 

     

    The steps I took to migrate (this is not necessarily the *best* way, but this is how I did it):

    1. Got rid of unnecessary duplicates on the PC, because who wants to migrate something that isn't needed?
    2. Copied the complete folder structures from PC to Mac using the network
    3. I learned to use Aperture by importing 100 images and following tutorials online and manual and 3rd party book
    4. I created my library structure - Year Folder/Project (with the Project being and event, a shoot, a random set of photos, or a sequence taken from the window of a train over 2 months)
    5. I created an Aperture Folder called Work In Progress.  In this I created a Project called Imports Holding Pen - this is my default Project for imports and the imports always go to this Project
    6. I created my keyword taxonomy
    7. I then chose the first image folder and imported them into the Imports Holding Pen, leaving the images in their original location (I'm using referenced, not managed).
    8. I assign ratings, then immediately delete any 1 star images as they're a waste of time
    9. I assign keywords
    10. I then decide what the destination Project name should be, and create the Project with that name in the relevant Year folder.  You always have a datestamp of some description....  I sometimes split the images between 2 or more Projects - this can often happen if I've been away and have business photos and my own photos on the same card.
    11. Drag the images to their new home in whatever Project you chosen for them to live in.
    12. Go back to step 7 and repeat for the next folder etc etc

     

    ...and that's how you do it.

  • 26. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    hotwheels 22 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi.

     

    Thank you chacro.

     

    I'm really grateful for the advice.

     

    Can I follow up with you on this as I get this thing into shape? There are a lot of things I want to leverage but I need to get these images wrestled into a Project (or Projects) so that they are organized and this has been a bit of a battle obviously.

     

    Can I ask you if you see any important differences between organizing by theme outside of Aperture by folder before import and assiging keyword to the images upon import - as compared to getting the images into themed Projects from withing aperture and then assigning a keyword once you have them organized into Projects?

     

    I see. You are saying to do this as they come in and to put them all into one great big Project but am I correct in assuming you don't see any problem dividing them up into many Projects instead of one big one?

     

    I know I am going to have to ask questions about this later but I do like the fact that I now have /Folders/ that are "thematic" and also contain Projects with sub-themes. I know I may wish to SWITCH OVER to managing with Smart Albums in this sort of way but in terms of just getting the raw data into Aperture does the approach above sound similar or as good as you are suggesting?

     

    THANK YOU!

  • 27. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    hotwheels 22 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi CalxOddity.

     

    Thank you very much for the help.

     

    A. I created my library structure - Year Folder/Project (with the Project being and event, a shoot, a random set of photos, or a sequence taken from the window of a train over 2 months)

     

    > can you explain this please? you referring to Folders that contain images on your hard drive before import? you say "with the project being an event, a random set of photos, or a sequence taken from the window train over 2 months". This sounds like it is neither by "Shoot" nor "by "Theme" but a hybrid organization that makes sense coming from windows, yes? Then you simply pre-pended a date in front of "/Project", yes?

     

    B. I created an Aperture Folder called Work In Progress.  In this I created a Project called Imports Holding Pen - this is my default Project for imports and the imports always go to this Project

     

    > OK, thanks.

     

    C. I created my keyword taxonomy

     

    > OK. Thanks.

     

    D. I then chose the first image folder and imported them into the Imports Holding Pen, leaving the images in their original location (I'm using referenced, not managed).

     

    > OK. So you have a Folder that contains a Project called "Imports Holding Pen" and the imports /all/ go into the Project /all/ together is that correct?

     

    E. I assign ratings, then immediately delete any 1 star images as they're a waste of time

     

    > OK, thanks

     

    F. I assign keywords

     

    > OK. This is for sorting images into Albums as they are all in one Project?

     

    G. I then decide what the destination Project name should be, and create the Project with that name in the relevant Year folder.  You always have a datestamp of some description....  I sometimes split the images between 2 or more Projects - this can often happen if I've been away and have business photos and my own photos on the same card.

     

    > Hi. I seem to have missed a step here and I see it is important. Before this item G I understand you have all your images in a Project which is itself in a Folder. The folder is named "Work In Progess" and the Project is called "Imports Holding Pen". Now you are creating new Projects to MOVE the images from the Imports Holding Pen project is that right?

     

    > Can you please explain how you do this? I don't understand this. " I sometimes split the images between 2 or more Projects - this can often happen if I've been away and have business photos and my own photos on the same card." You have two separate imports happening here or you are saying that you have two separate "shoots" on the same card and they come in as one Project and you then split this into two projects, yes?

     

    H. Drag the images to their new home in whatever Project you chosen for them to live in.

     

    > OK. Thanks.

     

    Seems like just a couple of issues I am missing on your methodology. Would you mind just helping me with it? I think we have done almost exactly the same thing but I want to make sure that I understand any differences.

     

    Regards and BIG THANKS.

     

    - Jon

  • 28. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    eltjofromu Level 1 Level 1 (85 points)

    Hi Jon,

     

    What are the Themes and sub-themes you are talking about?

  • 29. Re: Two versions in two different Projects?
    chacro Level 1 Level 1 (50 points)

    hotwheels 22 wrote:

     

    Can I ask you if you see any important differences between organizing by theme outside of Aperture by folder before import and assiging keyword to the images upon import - as compared to getting the images into themed Projects from withing aperture and then assigning a keyword once you have them organized into Projects?

     

    I see. You are saying to do this as they come in and to put them all into one great big Project but am I correct in assuming you don't see any problem dividing them up into many Projects instead of one big one?

    I was assuming from some of your other posts the files were ALREADY existing in themed folders somewhere. I was suggesting a way that you could automatically assign keywords as they are imported, since it seemed like such a daunting task to keyword them individually. It's my inherent laziness that made me suggest that.

     

    I don't really see any difference in how you organize your library. I would encourage you however to start keywording and I just thought this would be an easy way to get it underway. Filtering your library by keyword or combinations of keywords and other metadata is an imensly powerful feature. It's probably the main reason I switched from PhotoShop and Adobe Camera Raw. I'm very happy to be free of the file tree.

     

    Actually, the advice from the other guy is good. You should just buckle down and do the legwork now so you can leverage the power of the program later. Use themed projects if you want to, but I wouldn't advise having multiple versions just for the sake of seeing them in different collections.

     

    Here's where I would ultimately want to end up if I were in your shoes. Put simply, I'd like to have a single master file for any given photo living in a project that made sense for it to be in so I could easily find it when needed. I would have versions of that master living in the same project so I could easily find the different ways I have processed the master in one place.

     

    I would keyword these in a way that was usefull for me. For you this might be your themes and sub-themes. I would then have smart albums to collect based on keyword or keywords: IE collections. I'd probably also have some dumb albums that I'd manually fill which I'd make on the fly as needed. And delete when done without fear that I'm losing anything but that temporary collection. Sometimes I use the light table for this..

     

    I would avoid duplicate versions as much as possible. There's no reason for it. It's simply what's known in all computing as version control. If you have duplicates multiplying all over the place for the sake of being able to see them in different collections, and later decide that this photo should really have a different white balance for EG, you have to hunt them all down and change all of them. If you only change one, then you're left not knowing for sure which one it was when you need it later.

     

    Likewise, as our skill progresses what was once a 5 star photo will in the future be a 1 star. If you have multiple versions you have to individually change all of them. If you have only one version in the library that shows up in multiple albums you only have to edit that one and all the others instances follow suit.

     

    There'd be nothing wrong with having themed folders and the same theme as a keyword if you'd like to keep your projects organized in this way. If a photo has multiple themes just add more keywords and it'll show up in multiple collections. Some of my photos have 5 or 6 keywords.

     

    You might consider importing your theme folders of files into similarly themed projects and applying a themed keyword thru the preset. But turn on 'don't import duplicates'. Then all you have to do is individually apply another theme keyword to have it show up in a different theme album as well.

     

    The real beauty of this kind of approach, rather than an old school file tree type thing, is that it's very easy to sort your photos by different criteria on the fly as needed. It's a fluid file system. Not locked down. Not easily mucked up.

     

    For what it's worth, I have projects by shoot in folders by theme. I have albums to see sub-themes across the entire library. It's a beautiful thing.

     

    Charles