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Interesting - Mac OS X 10.8 "Mountain Lion"

9973 Views 115 Replies Latest reply: Feb 25, 2012 6:43 PM by Tgara RSS Branched to a new discussion.
  • Terence Devlin Level 10 Level 10 (121,655 points)
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    Feb 16, 2012 11:28 PM (in response to papalapapp)

    Terence, power-users are those of us who use their mac beyond twittering. We use and need our Mac every day for things that are important and essential in our lives e.g. earning money for paying our house, groceries, and our childrens education.

     

    Oh you mean like most people? Would you look at that, turns out I've been a "power-user" for coming up on 20 years now.

     

    Of course some things have to be cut of like the really useful "Save As" menu. Why? Is "Dublicate + Save + Close" simpler? Maybe, but also less useful.

     

    But this is where I don't get the "power" bit. Why would you do "Duplicate+Save+Close" when all you have to do is Save? Is it that hard to learn new stuff?

     

    What is 'Save As...'? One of two things:

     

    Freeze the data at this moment and save it into a different file of the same format. So I freeze the data in this Word File (doc) and save it as another Word File (also doc).

     

    The new process freezes the data at this moment and saves it... into the same file. You can still revert to the data at the same point, you can split and move into different directions and revert to this point and so on. The only difference... the frozen data is accessible via a different method.

     

    Or: Freeze the data at this moment and save in a Different format:So I freeze the data in this Word File (doc) and save it as another kind of file: txt, pdf, rtf etc. That's what export does.

  • Richard1952 Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 12:40 AM (in response to Terence Devlin)

    Terence Devlin wrote:

     

    However, I am deeply worried by the implied changes to the file system (I noticed at once that the illustration of Mountain Lion's apps show no sign of disks, folders or files on the desktop even when the menu is showing Finder).

     

    Just so I understand: You're "deeply worried" by a screenshot on a marketing page? This is what precipitates a crisis in your life?

    Well actually yes. The combination of file-system hiding and sandboxing (the two go together) will mean that I simply cannot continue to produce images in the way I described. Not only do I invest much free time in that, but I have also invested an inordinate amount of money in the supporting equipment.

     

    I know I don't have to upgrade, but sometimes I have to change equipment. Last year I bought a new Mac Mini for the observatory as the old one was struggling under the load of all the real-time control tasks it had to perform. It can only run Lion and I can't downgrade it.

    And can someone explain to me what a "power-user" is? Because I keep reading about these mysterious creatures who seem very conservative in their computer usage and have difficulty coping with even the possibility of change. They seem rather fixated on a particular workflow and seem terrified that there might be an alternative way to do the same thing. How did they get that name?

    Yes, I can see your confusion: you equate a desire for stability with fear of progress and so this cannot be powerful. But that's not really the way it is.

     

    What is implied is that such users do not use strightforward apps. The apps may string together or communicate or the users may also have introduced thier own twists like self-written software or scripts. All of the trend towrds app-centric files will prevent that.

     

    Nobody here has really responded on the sandbox issue and that may be due to unfamiliarity. After March all App Store apps have to be sandboxed (see http://www.neowin.net/news/mac-app-store-sandbox-only-rule-coming-in-march  for example). This means that they cannot access the majority of services of the computer (e.g. USB ports) without having explicit permission which has to be approved, case-by-case, by Apple. And some services, like general and autonomous access to files cannot be granted (there are only a fixed set of possible permissions and this isn't one). So apps can only access files in thier own "sandbox" and not any other app's files. It is possible to use other files with an explicit "open" or "save" dialog, but this is clearly not possible for batch processing of hundreds of files (which power-users tend to do).

  • Terence Devlin Level 10 Level 10 (121,655 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 1:31 AM (in response to Richard1952)

    The combination of file-system hiding...

     

    What "file system hiding"? You're talking about a screenshot on a marketing page. So, they dont show the icons. That's no evidence that somehow the file system is hidden. That's evidence that the designer wants to show a clean screenshot. That is my point. You're worrying about nothing. Have a read of John Gruber's piece:

     

    http://daringfireball.net/2012/02/mountain_lion

     

    I think you can tke it that if the traditonal file system was hidden he might mention it. He doesn't. He doesn't mention it at all. But inter alia he offers some reassurance to you:

     

    Note this:

     

    iCloud document storage, and the biggest change to Open and Save dialog boxes in the 28-year history of the Mac. Mac App Store apps effectively have two modes for opening/saving documents: iCloud or the traditional local hierarchical file system. The traditional way is mostly unchanged from Lion (and, really, from all previous versions of Mac OS X).

     

    (emphasis added)

     

    Oh, and I know what a "power user" is supposed to be. Just that every time I see it used these days it seems to mean someone prone to panic.

     

    Oh, and Sandboxing only applies to apps in the App Store, not apps bought anywhere else.

     

     

    Regards

     

     

    TD

  • softwater Level 5 Level 5 (5,370 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 2:12 AM (in response to keg55)

    Of course this was obvious from mid last year, but its only just occurred to me with this news that I need to stop taking my last-generation-to-be-able-to-run-SL precious mac to work every day, bouncing it about in a backpack, chucking it on the sofa when I get home, letting it sit in a humid 30+ degree C atmosphere most of the time (I live in Bangkok...)...

     

    It's lasted 2 and half years like that, and my old white iBook 2004 (still running 10.3.9) lasted 5 years under even harsher treatment (and boy are those so much tougher than the flmsy aluminum cases we get nowadays) and still sits in 30 degree room with nothing but a ceiling fan for comfort, playing DVDs and running Paint programs for my kids.

     

    But once this MacBook Pro is gone, so has Snow Leopard.

     

    Don't know why it never dawned on me before that I need to start treating it with kid gloves. Ironically, I could buy a Lion-ed Air to sling to and from work, where I don't need to do much more than edit a few docs, and leave the Snow-machine in the air con at home ready for the heavy work.

     

    On the other hand, maybe I'll just stop giving Apple money for things I don't really want...a cheap linux netbook would serve my work purposes and save the wear-and-tear on my SL machine.

  • Michelasso Level 1 Level 1 (65 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 4:46 AM (in response to softwater)

    Softwater, are you really still going on against Lion? Go with the flow man, go with the flow..

     

    Actually I am "a little upset" (English understatement. The real words would get heavily censored here) because Apple obviously dropped the 32 bits kernel (on 64 bits CPUs...) with Mountain Lion. Because of the EFI32 and (Ibelieve) the lack of 64 bits kernel extensions for the old Intel GPUs. Thus SOFTWARE limitations made by Apple. What a rip off. Really.

  • softwater Level 5 Level 5 (5,370 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 5:49 AM (in response to Michelasso)

    Hi Michel, yeah I'm still swimming against the tide...

     

    Here's why:

    Lion doesn't meet my needs, and I'm not happy to pay more money for a product that is inferior to the one I had before.

     

    I challenge anyone to give me a compelling argument that Lion is superior to SL. I haven't seen ONE comprehensive, comparative review of SL vs Lion in these forums that shows the new OS is better than the old one. All I see is silly 'it's new, it's different, its the future' arguments. Those may all be true, but they do not establish that this 'new, different, future' actually represents a better product.

     

    To be frank, I simply can't understand why all you Lion lovers are rolling over, happy to keep paying money for an OS that has fewer features, is less compatible, is less configurable, is less versatile than the last system you had for no other reason than Apple tells you its better.

     

    So, here's my comparative review of SL vs Lion. I challenge you Lion lovers to offer me a compelling counter:

     

    SL Better     — Mobile Me

    Lion Worse   — iCloud

     

    SL Better      — DVD installation (means that you cannot easily reset Admin pwd without physical disk)

    Lion Worse      — Recovery HD installation (even a child can easily reset your admin pwd)

     

    SL Better      — Filevault 1 (nobody can see the Admin users files w/out Admin's pwd)

    Lion Worse     — Filevault 2 (any 'managed/standard' user enabled for startup can read Admin's home folder via single user mode).

     

    SL Better — Finder coloured icons in sidebar (easier to navigate)

    Lion Worse — monochrome theme (visually more difficult to navigate)

     

    SL Better — app switching via four finger swipe

    Lion Worse — no trackpad app switching, only via Launchpad (= much slower, more harder to navigate and fewer features, e.g., cannot quit, hide or show apps from gesture)

     

    SL Better — Spaces (can manipulate ‘desktops’ in 2 dimensions, and has indicator in menu bar telling you which Space you’re in)

    Lion Worse — Mission control (one dimensional, and no indicator of current desktop w/out entering MC)

     

    SL Better — QuickLook in SL (can open full screen preview without opening the app)

    Lion Worse — Quicklook in Lion (useless thumbnail that requires the app to be launched to see full size, defeating the whole point of it)

     

    SL Better — Wider backwards compatibility in SL (X11, Rosetta, Intel)

    Lion Worse — Less compatibility in Lion (no Rosetta; please don’t give me that “well Rosetta is 6 years old” story; I have opensource X11 apps that are older than Rosetta apps but which will run on Lion, so age is nothing to do with it. Its purely a cynical move to get people to buy new s/w to replace proprietary PPC s/w)

     

    SL Better — User configurability ( far more options to turn things on/off in SL)

    Worse — User configurability (fewer options, no choice about Autosave, Resume, Versions, Color, Shutdown window defaults, etc)

     

     

    So what do you think is worth paying for in Lion?

     

    Full screen apps? I have them in Snow.

    Mail? The changes are eye candy, and ‘Conversations’ is visually distracting.

    Safari? Minor cosmetic changes, no difference in functionality.

    Launchpad?? Hahaha Don’t make me laugh, I know you’ve all turned it off!

    ....?

     

    Err….no, I’m struggling to add to this list. Perhaps all your Lion advocates could fill it out for me….

     

     

    As Apple circa June 2011 would say, but which still, as a matter of fact, happens to be true,

     

    "Snow Leopard: the most advanced OS in the world".

     

  • Drew Reece (Re:co) Level 2 Level 2 (310 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 8:21 AM (in response to Terence Devlin)

    Terence Devlin wrote:

     

    Terence, power-users are those of us who use their mac beyond twittering. We use and need our Mac every day for things that are important and essential in our lives e.g. earning money for paying our house, groceries, and our childrens education.

     

    Oh you mean like most people? Would you look at that, turns out I've been a "power-user" for coming up on 20 years now.

     

    Of course some things have to be cut of like the really useful "Save As" menu. Why? Is "Dublicate + Save + Close" simpler? Maybe, but also less useful.

     

    But this is where I don't get the "power" bit. Why would you do "Duplicate+Save+Close" when all you have to do is Save? Is it that hard to learn new stuff?

     

    What is 'Save As...'? One of two things:

     

    Freeze the data at this moment and save it into a different file of the same format. So I freeze the data in this Word File (doc) and save it as another Word File (also doc).

     

    The new process freezes the data at this moment and saves it... into the same file. You can still revert to the data at the same point, you can split and move into different directions and revert to this point and so on. The only difference... the frozen data is accessible via a different method.

     

    Or: Freeze the data at this moment and save in a Different format:So I freeze the data in this Word File (doc) and save it as another kind of file: txt, pdf, rtf etc. That's what export does.

     

    Versions is a great feature but it has some drawbacks.

    It is tied to a hidden folder at the base of the boot HD. If you move the file to another machine good luck reverting it. Try using it on a FAT volume (USB, SD card…).

     

    No network volume support.

    Old versions dissapear if you duplicate a file.

     

    The 'frozen versions' are difficult to keep track of…

          Does the system delete old versions like Time Machine?

         Does the age of a file alter any purging?

         Does free disk space have any impact?

     

    Time Machine disks seem to fall apart after a few years of backing up to it (general slowdowns, followed by directory damage), will versions be the same?

    I expected to have several years worth of Time Machine data by now, but it's failures means I can only go back 3 months.

     

    There are other issues like how do I revert a collection of files, like a website, to last years version.

    The GUI doesn't highlight what actually changed between versions, it becomes impractical with long documents.

     

    How do versions track between iOS & OS X? iOS relies on the 'duplicate a file' ananlogy to make a new version, or to use a file in another app, that fits the old model of file management, not this new Autosave & Versions model.

     

    How can you retore versions to another machine or disk if your HD dies, it will be difficult to merge the hidden changes & the database on one disk so you have to pick which 'versions DB' to use.

     

    If you know the limit's of the technology you can work around them, but it really is no better than the limits we already learned to work around to backup our data & file history.

  • Richard1952 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 10:58 AM (in response to Terence Devlin)

    Terence Devlin wrote:

    Oh, and Sandboxing only applies to apps in the App Store, not apps bought anywhere else.

     

    Oh dear, I really do have to lead you by the hand.

     

    In the late version of SL and Lion, the App Store was introduced.

     

    In Mountian Lion, we have the next step: GateKeeper will ensure (but user configurable) that only App Store apps can be loaded. This was predicted to be the next step in the furore at the time.

     

    The next predicted step is that the user configurability allowed by GateKeeper will become less, the the step beyond is that it will not be possible to load any app except via the App Store.

     

    Now I know I'll be accused of paranoia, but this has been, so far, accurately predicted.

     

    and of course for the simple users, it will be more secure. It's just that power users will not be able to work like that and will have to go elsewhere.

  • Richard1952 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 17, 2012 12:31 PM (in response to Richard1952)

    Richard1952 wrote:

     

    and of course for the simple users, it will be more secure. It's just that power users will not be able to work like that and will have to go elsewhere.

    Power users here being those who want more than a social networking, photo cataloging, music playing, big phone (which can't make calls).

  • Michelasso Level 1 Level 1 (65 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 18, 2012 2:35 AM (in response to softwater)

    Softwater,

     

    After many months now I can tell you that I prefer Lion to SL because... of the Lion features indeed. Like:

     

    - Versions: I was wrong. Versions doesn't make a full copy of the documents at each revision. It does operate at the system file level. It splits the files in chucks, save only the modified ones and rebuilds the revisions when asked. The OS must know about the file formats. If optimized it can even save time when saving very large documents. Sure, keeping all revisions it will waste more disk space, but it is supposed to do a clean up regularly. The idea is great, it just needs more work.

     

    - Resume: I had Glims installed to resume all my tabs when relaunching Safari. How can't I like it?

     

    - Full Screen applications: that's a Lion feature. SL doesn't have them. Now to use full screen applications not using the Lion framework drives me mad.

     

    - Mission Control: it's dynamic. I can assign applications to spaces on the fly. Which is what I use it for the most. Then I always switch via the Dock.

     

    - Filevaults: i don't use them, but I can see your point.

     

    - iCloud: at least it's for free. I don't know about Mobile Me. I use Dropbox anyway. It fits my needs better.

     

    - Quicklook: what are you talking about? I full screen the previews and no application is launched. In SL it just looks cooler. Are you sure you're not talking about something (Lion) you're not using?

     

    - The DVD installation from a security point of view isn't an argument. Use a boot password if you're afraid someone can mess up with your machine. Once people have physical access to any computer the security is compromised. That's why the large machine rooms even have security guards outside.

     

    - Rosetta: it is actually 7 years old. 6 When Lion came out. How can I complain about Rosetta if 10.8 doesn't install in my 64 bits MacBook at all?? That's the Apple way. Sony did the same with the PS2 compatibility. It cut costs, it sels more HW. Update your applications, it isn't such a big deal.

     

    - OS X (Snow Leopard included) is not much configurable generally speaking. It isn't Linux where everyone can mess up with everything, kernel included. We are given what is supposed to be the best configuration available. Also with my better understanding of Versions I think it would be messy to turn it off. Still possible, but confusing.

     

    Then, as usual, I tell you the first reason why I love Lion: is much more effcient than Snow Leopard (memory management apart, apparently). My CPU usage (old Intel Core 2 Duo) is usually below 10%. Snow Leopard was a mess.

     

    But don't worry. You'll love Mountain Lion better. You'll be able to tweet with it!!

  • softwater Level 5 Level 5 (5,370 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 18, 2012 3:32 AM (in response to Michelasso)

    Michelasso wrote:

     

    - Full Screen applications: that's a Lion feature. SL doesn't have them.

     

     

    Wrong.

     

     

    fullscreen.png

  • softwater Level 5 Level 5 (5,370 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 18, 2012 3:38 AM (in response to Michelasso)

    Michelasso wrote:

     

    Softwater,

     

     

    - The DVD installation from a security point of view isn't an argument. Use a boot password if you're afraid someone can mess up with your machine. Once people have physical access to any computer the security is compromised. That's why the large machine rooms even have security guards outside.

     

     

    Wrong.

     

    With SL you have to be a bit of at least a bit of a Mac guru and comfortable with Terminal to start up the machine and reset a user's password. With Lion, you can do it simply in the GUI. Children can defeat parental controls in under 5 minutes.

     

    Firmware passwords give a false sense of security. You go for your coffee break, I'll have your firmware password disabled before you get back. I don't need to steal your machine, just 10 minutes alone with it and I'm in to your accounts.

  • softwater Level 5 Level 5 (5,370 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 18, 2012 3:46 AM (in response to Michelasso)

    Michelasso wrote:

     

    - Quicklook: what are you talking about? I full screen the previews and no application is launched. In SL it just looks cooler. Are you sure you're not talking about something (Lion) you're not using?

     

     

    Hah. Right you are.

     

    They must have sneaked the full screen arrows in with 10.7.3. I don't remember .2, but it definitely wasn't there in 10.7.1.

  • Michelasso Level 1 Level 1 (65 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 18, 2012 4:25 AM (in response to softwater)

    softwater wrote:

     

    Hah. Right you are.

     

    They must have sneaked the full screen arrows in with 10.7.3. I don't remember .2, but it definitely wasn't there in 10.7.1.

    To be honest I remember that since 10.7.0. But I might be wrong.

     

    Now without making dozen of posts, are you saying that the firmware password can be compromised from Terminal... without having the password?! I don't know, I don't use it.

     

    Also... Do the SL full screen applications allocate a new space for themselves like in Lion? That is the feature I meant. I hate when the full screen applications just overlap everything in my space.

     

    Anyway the debate Spaces vs Mission Control is old. Once we get used to one, it is hard to switch to another. They both have PRO and CON.

     

    BTW I read somewhere that Mountain Lion may introduce an hot-key for the "Save as". That should make you people happy.

  • softwater Level 5 Level 5 (5,370 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 18, 2012 4:42 AM (in response to Michelasso)

    No, you can't get into Terminal if the firmware password is set, that's its whole point. However, defeating the password is really rather simple. I won't say how, but it is widely publicized and is even in Apple's online support docs.

     

    Full screen apps in S.L are available in all sorts of apps, both Apple (Pages, iPhoto etc)  and 3rd party (Firefox, Scrivener, DevonThink). Whether they obtain a new space or not is a different issue, but you have more versatility with the SL version because you can simply use the spaces hotkey to bring up the grid, and two-finger slide the full-screen to any space you want. In other words, you can choose to give it a dedicated space of its own or to have it in a space with other apps. In Lion (at least last I looked), you cannot choose to have the full-screen app anywhere else than where the OS puts it, nor can you choose to share that 'desktop' with any other window if (for whatever reason) you wish to do so. I believe this is also an irritating issue for Lioin users with multiple monitors who want to use Full screen.

     

    It doesnt' matter how "old" the debate is about MC and Spaces. I'm talking about which is better. Spaces is more powerful and more versatile.

     

    I couldn't care less about 'Save As' personally as I wouldn't use any Version-enabled program EVER for security reasons. However, if you're correct it does give some justification to the complaints here and elsewhere about how un-user friendly the removal of Save As.. was, despite the fact that such complaints were decried on here by the Faithful as luddite.

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