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What happened to Save As?

62397 Views 1,105 Replies Latest reply: Jul 18, 2013 12:57 PM by DChord568 RSS Branched to a new discussion.
  • stefano67 Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
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    Apr 16, 2012 6:16 AM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    interesting comments, too 

  • Level 8 Level 8 (41,760 points)
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    Apr 16, 2012 6:31 AM (in response to stefano67)

    Clearly, I'm not fond of such a device but as I already posted,« The times they are a' changing ».

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 16 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • Dennis Burnham Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
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    Apr 16, 2012 9:02 AM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    At first I thought, how typically devious of you to respond by throwing a ridiculous curve ball in our direction with the story abiut a touch- screen iMac.  But then, I thought about it some more.

     

    Guess what?  About a year before the release of the first Macintosh in 1984, I was invited by a Hewlett Packard sales rep to see a demo of their innovative touch- screen computer.  It had a display only a little bigger than the first Mac.  Around the perimeter of the screen was a set of infrared beams that detected, in a grid, where you touched the display.  It seemed like a cool device for point and click operations ... just like the ATM machines that Citibank was installing at all their branches.  But, I hasten to add that it was not without a keyboard.

     

    So, before you tell me that there will be no need for a keyboard in the iMacs of the future because voice recognition will be perfect and ubiquitous someday, let me just say that AppleCare has a voice recognition system that is incapable of accurately interpreting my voice commands in the current 2012 world.  Half the time, it "thinks" I've said iPod Touch no matter what else I have said that doesn't sound anything like that.  And no matter how clearly or slowly I recite my serial number, it gets it right no more than 5% of the time.

     

    Maybe I will someday swipe my hand around on my computer screen.  Maybe someday Apple will sell. living roomTV that makes remote controls seem like prehistoric anachronisms.  Maybe in the future I will also learn how to cook the way my mother did.  Who cares about maybe and the future?  This thread is about Lion TODAY.

     

    If Apple decides to make keyboards an optional extra-cost accessory for those who want them, then at least customers will have the CHOICE.  When they took away Firewire 400 ports, we have the CHOICE of buying a cable that converts 800 to 400 so we don't have to discard our external hard drives.  When they built MacBook Air laptops without optical drives, they gave us the CHOICE of buying an external accessory.  They didn't just do what they did with the elimination of SAVE AS which is to say, like it or not, it's gone and you better get used to living without it.  Moreover, we're discussing software, not hardware, which costs nobody anything extra. 

     

    If somebody has a theory that eliminating SAVE AS is a mastermind's clever way of selling higher capacity SSD drives, I am not ready to believe that conspiracy theory.  If someone has an explanation that auto-saving versions cuts down on the baor cost for AppleCare And Genius Bar agents supporting helpless users who lose their data, it has yet to be put forward.  The only defenses in this thread for the removal of SAVE AS are a continual stream of rebuttals whose themse is "bling progress" and diversionary messages such as the latest one about Michelangelo.

  • Dennis Burnham Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 9:08 AM (in response to Dennis Burnham)

    sorry for the typo in the last paragraph.  I wrote " labor" or at least I tried to write "labor" on my iPad, which thoughtfully changed the spelling for me to a different word, "baor" which is not even in the dictionary. 

     

    I'm pretty sure this only happens tox me and all other users of iOS devices have no such experiences.  :-)

  • Level 8 Level 8 (41,760 points)
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    Apr 16, 2012 9:13 AM (in response to Dennis Burnham)

    We know what Lion is today.

    We know also what Mountain Lion is today.

    In both cases Save As is dropped from Apple applications.

    Today, an application which allow the user to disable Version or/and Autosave can't be in the list of Lion's aware applications.

    It seams that it's clear enough.

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 16 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • Dennis Burnham Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 9:19 AM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    Really?   And whom, may I ask respectfully, is "we" ?

     

    If by "we" you refer to yourself and the other stubborn, clairvoyant writers who insist that the rest of us adhere to your preferred way of working, I can only say that doesn't include me.  I don't yet have access to Mountain Lion.

     

    If and when we are successful in our effort to have SAVE AS returned to us, there will be plenty of humble pie for you to swallow .. and choke on.

  • Level 8 Level 8 (41,760 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 9:23 AM (in response to Dennis Burnham)

    As I already wrote, in Mountain Lion there is at least one more Apple application which dropped Save As : Scripts Editor.

     

    There are none so deaf as those who refuse to hear.

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 16 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • elol Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 10:09 AM (in response to GunnerBuck)

    Hi;

     

    script editor.   one more applications on the black list.

     

     

    Back in the dark ages when I/We used to do BETA testing for IBM/Other Software and our own systems.   we had different type of beta testers.

     

    the academic/auditor who tested to see if software worked according to the book(nitpicky, nothing to loose), the operational person who tested to see it worked as it should and can we live with it),  and then the end user whose job/livelyhood depended on the new software/application (out of a job it it does not work).

     

    each person's comments were considered before we made a final decision.

     

    I believe apple will do the same.  they will eventually consider all the users.

     

    wonder which category Yvan is in???

     

    Yvan?   what is your  job ?   I know you were a potter.  What business experience do you bring to the discussion list here??? I would like to know how to evaluate and consider what you say.

     

    I appreciate as have many others the deep knowledge that you have of both Pages and Numbers.  But what do you do with it?   is it a living like most of us?  or are you an academic type who just loves the products?????

     

    I for one like the two products  I do things with them I cannot do with any other product    but   if they can not do not do the job  I require in my business I will drop them and move on ..  just like any other business would.

     

    elo

  • markinbali Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
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    Apr 16, 2012 10:39 AM (in response to elol)

    elol wrote:

     

    Yvan?   what is your  job ?   I know you were a potter.  What business experience do you bring to the discussion list here??? I would like to know how to evaluate and consider what you say.

     

    Whatever he does he's not in the service industry that's for sure!

    Mac mini, Mac OS X (10.7.3)
  • Dennis Burnham Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 10:52 AM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    So, let me get this straight.

     

    You say you have seen, or you have been using, or you somehow have authoritative information about MOUNTAIN LION.

     

    I reply that I am not yet able to use Mountain Lion.

     

    You reply that in Mountain Lion, the program Script Editor will behave without the SAVE AS menu command.

     

    Am I missing something Yvan, or did you just give us another of your deflective non-responses?

     

    As for your proverb about deafness, I hereby propose this quote in response: It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.  Some say it's from the Bible, others attributre it to Confucius, Mark Twain, George Eliot, Ben Franklin or Socrates. 

     

    For today's purpose, let's just say you heard it from me. 

  • DChord568 Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 11:03 AM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    KOENIG Yvan wrote:

     

    If I understand well, you want to get my answer.

    Alas, as I wrote in the message which Kurt Lang reported to Apple, I was asked to no longer respond to such questions.

    I apply the rule, no less, no more.

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) dimanche 15 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

     

    Could this guy possibly get any more ridiculous?

     

    How were you "applying the rule" in all of these instances?

     

    Re: What happened to Save As?

     

    Re: What happened to Save As?

     

    Re: What happened to Save As?

     

    Re: What happened to Save As?

     

    Re: What happened to Save As?

     

     

    How convenient for you! It seems that you "apply the rule" only when the questions posed to you are too embarrassing or uncomfortable for you to answer.

     

    And who could blame you?

     

    I sure wouldn't want to be put in the position of having to explain exactly why it's a good thing when a system change makes a significant percentage of users' ability to work on the Mac more difficult. (We've had countless examples of this here and in other threads. Funny, you never comment on these either. You just whistle and look the other way.)

     

    I sure wouldn't want to be put in the position of having to explain why instituting a change that would make 100 percent of the Mac user base happy is a bad idea, or why it's a much better idea to keep a change that will result in a percentage of the user base abandoning Apple-branded software, delaying upgrading their hardware, or deserting the Mac platform altogether. (We've had numerous examples of all three in this very thread, and elsewhere too.)

     

    You've been put in this position many times in the past. Only back then, you didn't have your (alleged) "Apple told me not to comment" excuse to fall back on. So back in those days, you simply ignored those quesitons altogether, and pretended they had never been asked.

     

    This is simply your latest ploy to avoid personal accountability. It speaks volumes about you.

  • Level 8 Level 8 (41,760 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 12:37 PM (in response to elol)

    elol wrote:

     

    Yvan?   what is your  job ?   I know you were a potter.  What business experience do you bring to the discussion list here??? I would like to know how to evaluate and consider what you say.

    I studied to become "Ingénieur des Ponts et Chaussées".

    When I graduated, I worked a few years upon several buildings.

    In july 1971 I resigned and entered the pottery workshop of my wife's family.

    Some years after I bought my first computer : an ITT2020, an authorized clone of Apple ][.

    I replaced it soon by an Apple //e then by an Apple //gs.

    I built three consecutive French versions of GS OS the operating system of this late machine because Apple France refused to do that.

    I built also the French version of AppleWorks GS. Claris was so impressed by my work that I was allow to distribute it commercially.

    After that, Apple (ruled by Steve Jobs) dropped the Apple //gs. I spent so many hours about this machine that I decided that I will no more try to fight against machines evolution.

    I decided too to stop computer programming.

    I bought a mac and behaved with it as a standard user.

    Some years later, I learnt AppleScript which allowed me to give complementary features to AppleWorks (the mac version).

    I was asked by Apple to beta test the late three revisions of AppleWorks 6.

    During these years, I used AppleWorks for numerous tasks related to my workshop.

    I retired in december 2003.

    Later, I bought iWork 6 and reported a lot of oddities to Apple.

    When iWork '08 was delivered, I was asked by Apple to study the French version (the localized version wasn't tested before delivery).

    I filed a lot of reports. Some were treated, some are always open.

    I bought iWork '09 and continued to study it in depth to be able to use it efficiently for tasks related to the history of the family workshop.

    Starting from AppleWorks ones, I entered several discussions forums to give other users the benefit of my knowledge of the apps.

    I no longer count the number of users documents which I revived after corruptions of different kinds.

    I never gave details about the techniques used in my workshop so I will not give more details about what I do with iWork apps. Just know that I push Pages and Numbers near their technical limits.

    The common description of my status is : power user.

    I'm aware of what may be done with Pages, Numbers and Preview. I know TextEdit but certainly not so deeply than the three others. Of course, I use them as well as the Script Editor every day.

    Given the number of messages from users crying because they lost their datas, I delivered an AutoSave script applying to iWork applications.

    I already wrote that quite since the beginning I decided that creating documents starting from standard ones was bad practice. I never explained why.

    At the true beginning I worked like you. I created new invoice or new administrative document sttarting from an existing document of this kind.

    One day I received a phone call from a customer claiming that my invoice was wrong, and it really was. I discovered quickly that given a bug in AppleWorks, when a spreadsheet was edited several times, internal poiners became corrupted putting autocalculation on strike and so, some multiplications were posted with results belonging to the old document. Same problem an other day with an administrative document relative to taxes. Such cases are really boring and as I knew the cause, I decided that if would no longer strike on me. After that, I saved every document supposed to be used as a starting point as a template (stationary for Preview or TextEdit). I perfectly know that we may work an other way but, given the described problem, I refuse to use this other scheme..

     

    Given that, when I learnt that Lion was introducing AutoSave and Versions, I was satisfied.

    When I discovered that Save As was gone I was surprised but had no specific advice about that except the fact that it was not a problem for my own practice.

    Then, since Lion delivery I work with the now standard workflow and I'm really at ease with it.

    I didn't wrote « perfectly at ease » because I dislike the fact to be forced to save once by hand to ger AutoSave working. Mountain Lion enhance that. When we create a new doc, the system/application automatically save it with a standard name in a standard location. We may set the wanted name/location immediately or when the doc is ready to use : perfect design, perfect workflow.

     

    To answer your late question, I worked a few years in a huge company. Given my signature, it's easy to guess that I was not satisfied in such environment. It's why I resigned to work with no both except the clay which I was using.

    As I already wrote, customers were free to select the object of their choice and to pay it.

    Every attempt to tell me that it would be fine to change this or that ended with the churl to be firmly pushed to the exit (sometimes they were kicked off).

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 16 avril 2012

    Ni dieu, ni maître !

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • Level 8 Level 8 (41,760 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 12:44 PM (in response to Dennis Burnham)

    Dennis Burnham wrote:

     

    You reply that in Mountain Lion, the program Script Editor will behave without the SAVE AS menu command.

     

    Am I missing something Yvan, or did you just give us another of your deflective non-responses?

    As far as I know, when I write something it's that I'm really aware of it.

    Trust me or don't, I repeat : in the existing versions of Mountain Lion, Script Editor has no Save As menu item. Some betatesters are unfair enough to put beta versions in torrents so it's easy to see that

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 16 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • elol Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 12:53 PM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    Hi:

     

    Yvan.   thank you

     

    I respect you for that answer and for what you have obviously accomplished with your work.

     

    However as you said  the world must move on.... and so will those of us who do not like what is happening

     

    Please respect us for wanting some options that we can live with.  

    We have never asked for the changes to be removed. 

    Only that we be provided with a choice

     

    As an apple evangilist you should inform apple that there is serious concerns from some business users about the new environment. That is what they would expect from you and it is very important that they hear this.

    Even though you do not agree with us. 

     

    cheers elo

  • DChord568 Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 12:59 PM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    KOENIG Yvan wrote:

     

    Trust me or don't, I repeat : in the existing versions of Mountain Lion, Script Editor has no Save As menu item. Some betatesters are unfair enough to put beta versions in torrents so it's easy to see that

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 16 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

     

    So in other words, you tattle to Apple when someone "breaks the rules" with a feature you personally don't like (despite its usefulness to a great many other people).

     

    But when it suits you, you have no problem with "breaking the rules" by obtaining Apple software illegally.

     

    Nice.

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