Skip navigation

What happened to Save As?

62253 Views 1,105 Replies Latest reply: Jul 18, 2013 12:57 PM by DChord568 RSS Branched to a new discussion.
  • Dennis Burnham Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 28, 2012 4:46 PM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    You are such fool to propose that example of a football "rule"/  More apropos to this discussion, what would you say to a football match in which the referree commands all players to kick with their left foot?

     

    Some players who were accustomed since early childhood to kick with their right foot will reasonable object and say that this change forces them to suffer a performance decrease in their playing and scoring ability.  They would say it unreasonably favors those who like to kick with their left foot.  Soon, you would hear players complaining that they should be allowed the CHOICE of which foot to kick the ball with.

     

    And the left footed kickers would have no disadvantage if they desire to continue kicking with their left foot.

     

     

    My only hope is that someone would kick the ball into your face … with either foot… and teach you a lesson about the consequences of being so dictatorial, rude, and disrespectful to the opinions of others.

  • Dennis Burnham Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 28, 2012 4:51 PM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    I sincerely hope this translates well into your native language:  this quote is attributed to Mark Twain among many others, so I am not sure who the original quotation is attributed to, but you could learn a lesson from this:

     

    "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt."

  • Steve Maximus Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 28, 2012 6:15 PM (in response to raftr)

    Raftr, thanks for trying, this is a great post. Those of us who understand appreciate it. And the monkeys, they don't understand and they never will. Better to feed them bananas than logic and reason. Be at peace with that. I just went and got Pixelmator before it gets banned. Thanks for the advice. It looks like a really amazing program.

  • stefano67 Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 29, 2012 12:52 AM (in response to Steve Maximus)

    Steve Maximus wrote:

     

    This is a forum for people who have Lion and want to solve issues. If the solution to an issue on Lion is to not use Lion, then there would be no forum here to solve issues in using Lion. So that is never a solution to post here.

     

    ...

     

     

    Hi Steve,

     

    I generally agree with you, but not completely. Sometimes (like in this 3d) people ask for getting back a feature (Save As). IMHO the solution is to avoid Lion (for now) or those apps forcing to use autosave.

    Then, as the discussion goes on one topic calls another and we may digress (except somebody, who continues to repeat the same things like a parrot ). I did digress, writing about cvs abd other stuff. For sure some people did not appreciate my comments. Hpefully some others found them useful.

     

    Have a nice day.

    S.

  • Dennis Burnham Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 29, 2012 7:23 PM (in response to Steve Maximus)

    Here is another example of a real world use of SAVE AS that is defeated by the new Versions/Auto Save in Lion.

     

    I've got a document I wrote in Pages, let's say a month ago.  Today, I am making a new document and I want to pick up an object, let's say a photo, that was inserted in the old Pages document and use it in the new one.  Sure, I could use Choose ... to re-insert the same photo, but maybe I don't know where it is, or maybe it's a time saved to copy the one from the other Pages document which already has some other attributes like a frame, a mask, a shadow, a text wrap and it's faster to retain those from a previous document than re-create them anew.

     

    Now, here's the reason why I prefer using Cut instead of Copy when I have the older document open.  When you use Copy, there is no immediate certainty that you have put on your clipboard what you intend to copy.  Yes, of course you could open the Show Clipboard window, but notice that I used the word "immediate".  When you cut the object, you can see what you've removed and the point here is that, for the last 28 years, I have known that all I have to do when I close the original document is decline the SAVE option and it will be untouched by the CUT command I just used.  I do this with Illustrator files all the time, probably 50 times a day.

     

    So the problem with Lion's new auto-saving is that my old document is now "updated" in a way I did not want.  I did not want a new version of it, and I don't need a new version of it.  I only wanted the old document open momentarily so that I could CUT something from it and close it without saving it.

     

    Now, before the Lion defenders attack me for using CUT instead of COPY, I just want to repeat once more that I used the word "immediate".  If you copy the object instead of cutting it, you have to wait until after the succesive PASTE command to know if you've grabbed everything you intended - not too much and not too little.  If your windows are too large to fit side by side, you have to toggle back and forth to verify this. 

     

    The cut command, followed by a Close Without Saving is ideal in such a situation.  In Lion, however, you end up with an unwanted new version of your old document with the object removed ... unless of course you execute another now-necessary command to Revert it.

  • DChord568 Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 29, 2012 7:36 PM (in response to Dennis Burnham)

    Good example, Dennis. This reinforces the point we've been making all along with regard to the new AutoSave/Versions paradigm:

     

    These are OUR documents. It should be entirely OUR decision what we do with them...OUR choice as to whether we save them following a change or not.

     

    Isn't it ironic that Yvan has made such a repeated point of saying that no one is his master — and yet he so readily cedes complete control over what happens to his documents to the faceless Apple? Seems more than a little contradictory to me.

  • Donnie Ashworth Level 3 Level 3 (875 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 29, 2012 7:39 PM (in response to Dennis Burnham)

    Excellent example, Dennis. It all comes back to two issues: 1. freedom to order your workflow in a way that fits your needs ; 2. control over what gets saved when and how.

     

    And in addition to the cut example you mention, I have often gotten involved with complex documents which are being modified with a lot of trial and error and experimentation. As DChord points out, in those cases, only I can know when a document needs saving or when a version needs to be made. This is why I've never chosen the option of autosave in apps that provided it.

     

    I'm retired now and although I I am still using Pages and Numbers on a daily basis, my needs are a little less critical. But if I'd had to deal with the Save As / Autosave setup when I was working, I'd have been pulling my hair out.

  • Level 8 Level 8 (41,760 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2012 7:42 AM (in response to DChord568)

    DChord568 wrote:

    Isn't it ironic that Yvan has made such a repeated point of saying that no one is his master — and yet he so readily cedes complete control over what happens to his documents to the faceless Apple? Seems more than a little contradictory to me.

    No contradiction. I described several times the workflow allowing me to be the unique master of my documents.

    If you refuse to use it, it's your problem, not mine and I guess not Apple's one.

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • DChord568 Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2012 8:25 AM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    KOENIG Yvan wrote:

     

    DChord568 wrote:

    Isn't it ironic that Yvan has made such a repeated point of saying that no one is his master — and yet he so readily cedes complete control over what happens to his documents to the faceless Apple? Seems more than a little contradictory to me.

    No contradiction. I described several times the workflow allowing me to be the unique master of my documents.

    If you refuse to use it, it's your problem, not mine and I guess not Apple's one.

     

    OK, I'll amend what I wrote. You have wrested control of your documents from Apple by brute force...concocting lengthy and complex Applescripts to get around their "my way or the highway" paradigm and to enable a workflow that was at one time readily available to all.

     

    That's fine for you, because you enjoy crafting lengthy and complex Applescripts. But what about the other 99 percent of Mac users who lack the skills to do this, or don't enjoy this process as you do?

     

    The Mac was supposed to be "the computer for the rest of us," remember? The kind of onerous machinations necessary in the Windows world to get any kind of productive work done was something we didn't have to worry about. Remember?

     

    You've once again demonstrated your view of the rest of the world, which is: "*I* don't have a problem, so therefore no one else should ever have a problem either."

     

    And once again, for the thousandth time, your arrogance is on full display.

  • Level 8 Level 8 (41,760 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2012 8:30 AM (in response to DChord568)

    I wasn't pointing the scripts but my systematic use of templates.

    Given that, Lion changed absolutely nothing to my workflow.

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • DChord568 Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2012 8:41 AM (in response to KOENIG Yvan)

    KOENIG Yvan wrote:

     

    I wasn't pointing the scripts but my systematic use of templates.

     

    LOL!!!

     

    As I and others here have repeatedly pointed out to you (and you have repeatedly ignored), templates are of no use whatsoever when one needs to base a new document on an existing unique document. They are only useful for documents that always start out with exactly the same content.

     

    Templates do absolutely nothing to cure the loss of Save As when it comes to one of its most frequent uses...that is, preserving a document with unique content in its present state while basing a new document on the state to which it has been taken and making further changes.

     

    Yvan...get a clue, will you?

     

     

    P.S. I note that, as has been your habit from the beginning, you have ignored the bulk of my post...you know, the parts of it you have no answer for. Those parts, and the concerns they speak to, are still there, Yvan...they haven't magically disappeared because you've chosen to pretend they don't exist.

  • Level 8 Level 8 (41,760 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2012 8:55 AM (in response to DChord568)

    If I understand well what you wrote, you store your documents as azerty.pages, qsdf.numbers …

     

    May you understand what I wrote many times ?

     

    I don't keep « standard » iWork documents.

     

    On my machine there is no such file. I use Save as Template but don't store the documents in the Templates folder which would become too heavily filled. I store them in the folders of my choice as azerty.template or qsdf.nmbtemplate so I may use every ones as a starting point.

     

    For the other points, I can't tell you why Apple make this or that because I'm not working in Apple's offices and, if I was I wouldn't be allowed to do.

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • Dennis Burnham Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2012 8:59 AM (in response to DChord568)

    DChord, Yvan is never going to change his ways.  Clearly, all the persuasive arguments made by those of us who agree on the need for a Save As command make no impression on him, and only exacerbate the problem by fueling his passion to prove that we're wrong, and he's right.

     

    The only effective solution, many pages back, is the suggestion to just ignore him.  I know I have broken that rule myself, because it is sometime tempting to counter his offensive points with logic and reasonableness.  But it doesn't work.

     

    Just take the approach of:  "You win" and maybe he will be less inclined to burden us with any more of his self-righteousness than necessary.  We might pray for zero, but I will settle for whatever is the minimum necessary.

     

    He's right, that's all there is to it.  We're wrong and he's right.   I get it.

  • DChord568 Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2012 9:08 AM (in response to Dennis Burnham)

    Dennis Burnham wrote:

     

    DChord, Yvan is never going to change his ways.  Clearly, all the persuasive arguments made by those of us who agree on the need for a Save As command make no impression on him, and only exacerbate the problem by fueling his passion to prove that we're wrong, and he's right.

     

    The only effective solution, many pages back, is the suggestion to just ignore him.  I know I have broken that rule myself, because it is sometime tempting to counter his offensive points with logic and reasonableness.  But it doesn't work.

     

    Just take the approach of:  "You win" and maybe he will be less inclined to burden us with any more of his self-righteousness than necessary.  We might pray for zero, but I will settle for whatever is the minimum necessary.

     

    He's right, that's all there is to it.  We're wrong and he's right.   I get it.

     

    I have made that vow in the past to ignore him, too...but like you, I have found it difficult to resist when he puts particularly egregious examples of his ignorance on display.

     

    As you can see by his last post, he's doing more of the same. As I noted, for Yvan it comes down to "*I* don't have this problem in my workflow...anyone else who has a problem isn't me...so their problems are non-existent. Apple is always right...end of story."

     

    I'll try to do better in the future, but I make no guarantees. I needn't say anything about his latest post, as it pretty well speaks for itself in revealing his continuing ingnorance.

     

    I wonder how Google Translate would handle "obtuse"?

  • Dennis Burnham Level 1 Level 1 (25 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2012 9:09 AM (in response to DChord568)

    Regarding templates, DChord, I find it interesting that Save as Template... does not have a keyboard equivalent, which means that if I were to save every document as a template file, I could not conclude my work and arrive at the PutFile dialog box by typing command-W or command-S. 

     

    I no longer have access to the pre-Lion edition of iWork to see if command-shift-S or some other keystroke combination invoked Save As, the way it does in most Adobe applications.

     

    For anyone tempted to adopt the Save as Template idea for all their new documents going forward, it is worth noting that it does not save any steps or time.  Moreover, for someone like myself who would like to use the new Versions method occasionally, but not always, it would defeat that because those of us who are not clairvoyant may not know at the time the document is first saved with a name what possible future use may be made of it.

     

    As clever as the template idea may be, it is not as customer-friendly as the desire we have expressed for CHOICE.

1 ... 35 36 37 38 39 ... 74 Previous Next

Actions

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...

Bookmarked By (3)

Legend

  • This solved my question - 10 points
  • This helped me - 5 points
This site contains user submitted content, comments and opinions and is for informational purposes only. Apple disclaims any and all liability for the acts, omissions and conduct of any third parties in connection with or related to your use of the site. All postings and use of the content on this site are subject to the Apple Support Communities Terms of Use.