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Preview "save as" creates bigger file than input. Why?

1750 Views 28 Replies Latest reply: Jan 15, 2013 2:02 PM by AlwaysWrite RSS
  • Kurt Lang Level 7 Level 7 (31,490 points)

    I sincerely doubt any Snow Leopard users will ever see it.

    That's just it. Snow Leopard is what caused the PDF to engorge itself to 7.1 MB in my test. And that simply by opening the PDF in Preview and doing a Save As to a new name. Doing the same thing with the Adobe Reader didn't cause that.

    It is Scribus that is converting the fonts into pure outlines, perhaps to stay legal. Then it is Preview that scrambles that.

    Nope, I found the real problem. I had only been looking at the documents in Illustrator (not the best way to examine it), Preview and the Acrobat Reader. Silly me, I should have been looking at it with Acrobat Pro.

     

    There are no restrictions on the document at all, and no copyrights on the fonts. It uses 5 TrueType fonts. And the problem, 55 Type 3 PostScript fonts.

     

    Acrobat Pro and the Reader have no trouble moving them into a new document intact. Not surprising, Type 3 PS was an Adobe creation and they can handle them any way they want.

     

    Preview, however, cannot seem to handle Type 3 PS fonts. So every glyph using them is turned into a vector object. Examining the PDF copied by Preview in Acrobat Pro, the only embedded fonts left are the five TrueType fonts. All of the Type 3 PS fonts have been stripped and turned into vector art.

  • etresoft Level 7 Level 7 (23,900 points)

    Kurt Lang wrote:

     

    I sincerely doubt any Snow Leopard users will ever see it.

    That's just it. Snow Leopard is what caused the PDF to engorge itself to 7.1 MB in my test.

     

     

    I meant Snow Leopard as opposed to Lion. The original poster doesn't want to upgrade to Lion. If Apple fixes this, I doubt it would show up until 10.8.3 at the earliest.

     

    Nope, I found the real problem. I had only been looking at the documents in Illustrator (not the best way to examine it), Preview and the Acrobat Reader. Silly me, I should have been looking at it with Acrobat Pro.

     

    There are no restrictions on the document at all, and no copyrights on the fonts. It uses 5 TrueType fonts. And the problem, 55 Type 3 PostScript fonts.

     

    Acrobat Pro and the Reader have no trouble moving them into a new document intact. Not surprising, Type 3 PS was an Adobe creation and they can handle them any way they want.

     

    You are just feeding my Adobe conspiracy theories now. They publish the specs and standards for Postscript and PDF and the world rejoices. However, they still retain their market dominance so they immediately start flooding the market with new versions that no other tools can interpret.

     

    Then people show up here and complain about Apple. Adobe is effectively making more work for Apple to do. Sun did the same thing with Java and we all know how that turned out. To add insult to injury, Apple codes to said standards with Adobe doesn't actually support themselves. Then Apple has to fix it again to be compliant with Adobe's de-facto standards. Tell me again why Apple is getting out of the print market? PDF is dead. I can't stand it anymore.

  • Kurt Lang Level 7 Level 7 (31,490 points)

    Type 3 fonts that Scribus creates from TrueType fonts.

    So that's where those came from. I couldn't imagine who would have that many fonts of a long obsolete format, much less use them. Then the question becomes, why in the world is Scribus embedding the original TrueType fonts as a converted version?

  • Kurt Lang Level 7 Level 7 (31,490 points)

    It is Scribus that is converting the fonts into pure outlines, perhaps to stay legal. Then it is Preview that scrambles that.

    You may still be correct on that point. We've only seen the finished PDF, not the original fonts used. Some of them may have copyright protections that Scribus deals with by converting them to embedded Type 3 PS.

     

    Still, while Type 3 PS is obsolete, OS X does support them. So I couldn't guess why Preview isn't just carrying those fonts over into a new document as Adobe's software does instead of converting them to art.

  • Kurt Lang Level 7 Level 7 (31,490 points)

    The original font families used for the text are Lucida Bright and Lucida Sans ... When I replaced them with free downloaded fonts, ... the problems disappeared.

    May I ask where Lucida Bright and Lucida Sans came from? Are they purchased fonts? I have them a couple of ways myself. Lucida Bright was included with OS 9, and is also installed with MS Office 2008 and 2011. Lucida Sans was available these same three ways, and was also part of the Adobe Font Folio (Type 1 PS).

     

    Could you tell me which version you were using? I'd like to examine my copies to see what may be going on. But if they're distributed in any of the ways mentioned above, the only copyright in them should only be a general copyright notice to protect the name and design. There shouldn't be any restrictions on their use at all.

     

    If any of these are the versions you're using, Scribus may be balking at something as simple as the general copyright information, regardless of the fact the fonts have no use restrictions.

  • Kurt Lang Level 7 Level 7 (31,490 points)

    I just looked over all of the versions I have. The OS 9, Office 2008 and Office 2011 versions have no restrictions at all. However, the Type 1 PS version of Lucida Sans has Only printing and previewing of the document is allowed (read-only) on all four styles. The following are the four choices you can place on a font:

     

    lucidasans.png

     

    What you can't see in this screen shot is the checkbox behind the drop down menu choices. That's to Allow subsetting, which is tuned on.

     

    So if the Type 1 PS version of Lucida Sans is what you used, that's what may be causing the issue. Scribus is seeing the copyright restriction of only printing and previewing being allowed, and not looking past that. Since subset embedding is allowed, it should still be copying the font into the new document as is instead of turning it into Type 3 embedded fonts. Preview is compounding the issue by turning all of those conversions into artwork.

  • Kurt Lang Level 7 Level 7 (31,490 points)

    Scribus has it backwards. It will embed the font if I choose not to allow subsetting.

    Hmm, that can't be right. Looking at one of your two samples in Acrobat Pro, the five TrueType fonts are marked (Embedded Subset).

    I don't know what Scribus is balking at. I can't imagine it's reading the copyright text.

    No, I don't either. That was just a very wild guess at what Scribus may be doing. Most fonts have copyright text in them, as do two of the fonts which remained TrueType; Skia Regular and Skia Black.

    In any case, Preview should be able to output something readable from Type 3 font input.

    Yes. The Acrobat Reader has no trouble moving the Type 3 converted fonts into a new document. There's no reason Preview shouldn't be able to.

    When the embedded font is replaced by  outlines, the many instances of the same character that referred to the same outline in the font are now represented by one outline for each instance.

    Correct. As I mentioned above, "All of the Type 3 PS fonts have been stripped and turned into vector art."

    BTW that screenshot looks like Fontforge, but it doesn't look like any version I have.

    The screenshot is from FontLab Studio.

  • Kurt Lang Level 7 Level 7 (31,490 points)

    The Lucida and Optima fonts are treated as protected and embedded as Type 3.

    I can't guess why Scribus would do that. I checked all of the copyright and embedding settings in those fonts and the ones Scribus keeps as TrueType. They're all the same. So it makes no sense that Scribus insists Lucida and Optima are "protected".

  • AlwaysWrite Calculating status...

    I am having a similarly infuriating problem with Preview, but using scanned documents that I don't think have any fonts embedded. Deleting or reordering pages causes massive increases (on the order of 10-20x) in file size, which is causing all kinds of havoc.

     

    (Using quartz filters to reduce the file size again helps somewhat, bringing the file sizes down to maybe 2x the original, but we work with literally hundreds of documents a week and can't waste time doing this to every one for no good reason.)

     

    Using Acrobat Pro doesn't cause the file size increase, but we have people all over the world and not all of them have Acrobat Pro installed. Is Preview really incapable of removing or reordering PDF pages, and we need to spring for Acrobat Pro for everyone??

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