1 2 3 Previous Next 33 Replies Latest reply: Sep 20, 2012 1:56 AM by cesarpixel
Dvayanu Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

I found some threads with users having problems with new autosave and duplicate feature, and none of them contained an answer, and I was asking myself if there is an "Apple give us the save as button" back thread somewhere already.

 

First of all this autosave behaviour. I really don't want pages or numbers to save every nonsense I may write in a file, sometimes by simply mistyping cmd-v in a wrong window, without me telling it to do so. How dumb is that?

 

Second, why is the save as button gone? And no, duplicate is not the same, because duplicate doesn't start in the same folder. If I write an invoice to the customer, I take the invoice from the last month, click save as, select new number and change some dates and sums. This means, I did before 10.7. Now I have to find this very invoice on disk, which is not everytime easy to click through, click c&p, create a new invoice, and than i can start working on it. Annoying. If I click duplicate in an open document, it starts with the default folder, which is wrong in 99.99% of the cases.

Alas, the autolocking function on freshly created copies. This is just dumb. Really.

 

So, what the deal with removing such a simple button as save as?

 

I was being using iWork for business since 2007, and I have had hard time to convince everyone in the office to be on mac, and just as I achieved that, ... Well, now the people want to move to MsOffice again, isn't it silly? Thank you Apple.

 

P.S. And yes I tried to live with it for 9 month, but I can't get used to it.

 

 

 

P.P.S. I don't want to use ms-office....


MacBook Pro (17-inch Late 2011), Mac OS X (10.7.3), 2. Ghz, 17", GB Ram, TC, iPhone
  • 1. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    Matthew Morgan Level 7 Level 7 (22,555 points)



    I found some threads with users having problems with new autosave and duplicate feature, and none of them contained an answer, and I was asking myself if there is an "Apple give us the save as button" back thread somewhere already.

     

    This is as close as you'll get:

     

    http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

     

    Matt

  • 2. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    dwb Level 7 Level 7 (20,200 points)

    Ranting does no good. If you want to effect change, go to Apple's Feedback page and explain why these features are evil. In the past we have had some success in getting Apple to change features or return lost features.

  • 3. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    Ziatron Level 4 Level 4 (3,265 points)

    The simplest thing to do is to switch to Snow Leopard. (or Windows or Linux.)

     

    Some companies require the disabling of autosave and versions for security reasons. There are various modifications available on the Internet to do that.

     

    http://osxdaily.com/2011/11/30/how-to-save-as-mac-os-x-lion/

     

    So, what the deal with removing such a simple button as save as?

     

    Software is primarily sold by making “changes” not necessarily “improvements”.  By eliminating “save as” the software has been changed.

     

    It's distressing to see Apple dumbing down the Mac in general. Documents in the cloud, auto-save, versions, Launchpad, hidden Library folder, sandboxed apps, etc. I'll be curious if Apple backs down from this given all the complaints.

  • 4. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    dwb Level 7 Level 7 (20,200 points)

    It's distressing to see Apple dumbing down the Mac in general. Documents in the cloud, auto-save, versions, Launchpad, hidden Library folder, sandboxed apps, etc. I'll be curious if Apple backs down from this given all the complaints.

    I heard the same argument about computers when Apple released the Mac. The GUI is dumbing down computing. Yeah, right. Save As is a great feature, it has also been a source of data loss for years and I'm frankly amazed that it has taken this long for someone to tacke it. Lots of programs have auto-save and there are lots of auto-save utilities for those that don't but now that Apple offers the feature to developers it is dumbing down. Right.

  • 5. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    etresoft Level 7 Level 7 (24,270 points)

    Dvayanu wrote:

     

    I found some threads with users having problems with new autosave and duplicate feature, and none of them contained an answer, and I was asking myself if there is an "Apple give us the save as button" back thread somewhere already.

    These are the threads you are looking for:

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3216589

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3210906

  • 6. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    JoeyR Level 6 Level 6 (8,275 points)

    It's distressing to see Apple dumbing down the Mac in general. Documents in the cloud, auto-save, versions, Launchpad, hidden Library folder, sandboxed apps, etc. I'll be curious if Apple backs down from this given all the complaints.

    I agree.  Most of the concerns (I won't say "issues" as many here find these changes beneficial) I have with Lion have been thoroughly commented on by others.  I guess we'll get an idea of how things are moving with the introduction of Mountain Lion.  If they haven't made any changes based on input they received from Lion, I guess they'll keep heading down the same road.  I've been seeing more and more comments from people asking "Why can't I do this or that the same way I do it on my iPad?".  Apple hasn't been the "little guy" anymore for a number of years now.  What used to be a product mostly used by enthusiasts has become the pinnacle of mainstream.  The old 80/20 rule means you design your products to meet 80% of your customers requirements.  If you try to cater to the 20%, you stand to miss out on the larger opportunities.  Years ago, 80% of the Mac community were more techy alternative types.  Today, with iPhones and iPads being the tech toys most lusted after, they've become a huge part of Apple's market.  It only makes sense that they would try to give those folks an easy transition into using Macs by making them more iPhone/iPad like. 

     

    Apple made some bold moves with Lion.  They may have just been testing the waters to see how people react.  I frankly don't care if they bring in as many iOS features as they want, I just want the option to disable the stuff that doesn't work for me.  You can't make huge changes to the way files are handled without giving any options to continue using the previous method which people have been using for decades.  It's just too disruptive to many peoples workflow.  Apple's iOS methodology of "we know what's best" found it's way into quite a few areas of Lion.  Change is great, but you need to allow people time to adjust.  Put the features there, but give me options... Let me decide what works best for me.

  • 7. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    Dvayanu Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    >  Save As is a great feature, it has also been a source of data loss for years and I'm frankly amazed that it has taken this long for someone to tacke it.

     

    I am sorry, but you Sir, are the first person I ever heard of, who actually lost some data due to "Save as".

    How can one imagine this? Save document A as document B - Oh, damned now I lost some data???

  • 8. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    Terence Devlin Level 10 Level 10 (123,770 points)

    Of course there's another way of looking at it.

     

    First of all this autosave behaviour. I really don't want pages or numbers to save every nonsense I may write in a file, sometimes by simply mistyping cmd-v in a wrong window, without me telling it to do so. How dumb is that?

     

     

    Not Dumb at all. Very intelligent actually. Why on earth should protecting your data require an extra step - saving? All that's happening here is that the app is defaulting to protect the data, instead of defaulting to having the data unprotected. It's common sense that it should take an extra step to trash data, not to save it. What's odd is that no computer up to now has defaulted to protecting the data.

     

    If I write an invoice to the customer, I take the invoice from the last month, click save as, select new number and change some dates and sums.

     

    So, to be clear, you're using last month Invoice as a Template, right? So, why do that when you can just use an actual Template? Much more simple. That's what that whole 'Save as Template' command is about.

     

    Why would you use Save As?

     

    1. To preserve the data at this point in time so that you can revert to it - well saving does that now. It creates a snapshot of the data at this point in time, and you can revert to it.

     

    2. To save in a different format: That's what Export is for.

  • 9. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    JoeyR Level 6 Level 6 (8,275 points)

    This is just one of those darned if you do and darned if you don't situations.  Apple's implementation in Lion "is" actually better for protecting your data.  The problem is, when you've been using one method for decades and a new method is introduced for such a basic function, people can't just flip a switch and start using the new method without some learning curve.  Fortunately, the new method makes it less likely that you will lose anything as you try and figure out how everything works.  As I said, I would prefer at least the option of using the old method.  I expect this would be difficult to manage though.  It would be a nightmare if you could just switch back and forth between the two methods.  I'm not even sure that would be technically possible to do.  It's safe to say that without being forced to switch, most people would continue to use the older method if given the option (myself among them).  So this "nudge" in the newer direction on Apple's part is really necessary to move forward. 

  • 10. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    Dvayanu Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Terence Devlin wrote:

     

    Of course there's another way of looking at it.

     

    First of all this autosave behaviour. I really don't want pages or numbers to save every nonsense I may write in a file, sometimes by simply mistyping cmd-v in a wrong window, without me telling it to do so. How dumb is that?

     

    Not Dumb at all. Very intelligent actually. Why on earth should protecting your data require an extra step - saving? All that's happening here is that the app is defaulting to protect the data, instead of defaulting to having the data unprotected. It's common sense that it should take an extra step to trash data, not to save it. What's odd is that no computer up to now has defaulted to protecting the data.

     

     

    But in fact is acting the opposite way. Instead of protecting my data is trashes the data, by saving when I wanted it not to. Do I actually have to kill the pages from terminal with -9 to prevent it from saving my data?

    Maybe other people find it useful, great, then why not just make it optional and let those who do not need it switch it off?

     

     

    Terence Devlin wrote:

     

    If I write an invoice to the customer, I take the invoice from the last month, click save as, select new number and change some dates and sums.

     

    So, to be clear, you're using last month Invoice as a Template, right? So, why do that when you can just use an actual Template? Much more simple. That's what that whole 'Save as Template' command is about.

     

    This would mean that I have to save each and every document I write as template? I have several customers and always write the new invoice based on the previous one (change in adress, other people worked on it, etc). Saving it each time as template and creating a new one from template is not really an easy workaround to the save as thing. And, yes, TextMate, Eclipse and 1000 other programms do offer a save as button, and I never lost any data in it yet...

  • 11. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    Terence Devlin Level 10 Level 10 (123,770 points)

    I'm sorry but I can find no way in my grasp of the English language to make sense of this statement:

     

    Instead of protecting my data is trashes the data, by saving when I wanted it not to.

     

    Saving your data trashes it?

     

    Why not explain to us why it's better that the default setting is your work is unprotected?

     

    So, you're using a Template or you're not? If you always base this month's Invoice on last month's, then duplicate in the Finder and open the Duplicate. Same effect, slightly different workflow.

     

    I'm delighted that you have never lost any data. I reckon that makes you one of very few.

     

    Regards

     

     

    TD

  • 12. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    Kurt Lang Level 7 Level 7 (31,990 points)

    Saving your data trashes it?

    Yes. I routinely open files to make minor modifications to in order to drag those modified components into a new image. When I close the file I only opened to grab pieces from, I do not expect, nor do I ever want the OS to save any changes without my consent. So yes, anytime the OS saves changes without asking me, it is trashing my data.

     

    And yes, I know I can revert it before closing, or after the fact from the desktop, but I shouldn't have to waste my time doing that. It's much faster to close and click Don't Save.

    I'm delighted that you have never lost any data. I reckon that makes you one of very few.

    My either. The only time I've ever lost data was when hard drive died on me before I had backed some unimportant stuff (just had to retrieve it again on the web), and floppies disks back in the day that were suddenly unreadable. I have only once or twice in over 25 years of computing deleted a file by my own mistake. And I then was able to recover them.

     

    What I'd really, really like to know is why those who prefer Save As have to justify such a simple thing - choice. That's all it would take to solve all of this. Give the user a choice of which way they want to work. Both sides get the workflow they prefer. I can't see a single thing wrong with that.

  • 13. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    Dvayanu Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hello Terence,

    actually Kurt said it all, I will still try to answer you directly.

     

    >Saving your data trashes it?

     

    Yes, imagine ;-) We are several people working on shared files in the dropbox. Whenever someone is opening a file, just to look it into, we do not expect its to be autosaved without explicitly stating that we want it saved.

    And if someone is editing a file errorneously he doesn't want it to be saved and, by that, destroyed either.

    In other words: If a document has several consistent states, I don't want it to be saved between the states, during the transition. It is like with databases, I want the record either to be stored completely, or not at all (automicity), I don't want inconsistent record. Exactly this is what happens there: by opening a document and making some changes to it, I am not transferring it into another consistent state, unless I explicitly define that the state is reached now (by hitting cmd-s).

     

    >If you always base this month's Invoice on last month's, then duplicate in the Finder and open the Duplicate. >Same effect, slightly different workflow.

     

    That's what I'm doing now, but its not very convenient to do. First because I can't use "recent document" option. Second because I can't open a document from spotlight. And finally the search in the finder ***** and I never find anything I look for by searching directly in finder.

    So I end up having a lot of folders in my sidebar and trying to remember where I have invoices, creditnotes, hour-lists and so on for each month and employee.

    It works, but it was much easier with "save as".

     

    regards

    Leon

  • 14. Re: Is there already a rant thread to restore save as button and disable autosave?
    Dvayanu Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Looking at mountain lion features:

    Keyboard shortcut for Save As

    Use Command-Shift-Option-S to save a document using a different name and location.

    They bring it back? :-)

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