1 2 3 4 Previous Next 59 Replies Latest reply: Apr 7, 2013 8:53 AM by Philly_Phan Go to original post
  • 45. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Chris CA Level 9 Level 9 (74,885 points)

    What?

     

    Thor HoG wrote:

     

    Well, the iPhone would say "I'm at this location, and connected to a router with an internal mac address of aa:bb:cc:11:22:33.

     

    Let's say that's true.  Now what?

    Now your iPad can show your correct geographical location via Apple location services because it knows the MAC address and geographical location of the wifi router you are connected to.

  • 46. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Thor HoG Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    That didn't answer the question.  Now that Apple has router AA:BB:CC:11:22:33 is at123 Address, City, St Zip, how would anyone else be able to use that information?

     

    The only way to get that information is by going to whatever database there was and putting in AA:BB... to look up the address.  How do you think anyone would get that MAC address to know to look it up?

     

    The only way that could even remotely work is if you were already standing in front of my house to get the MAC address.  So you would have to be standing out there in order for Apple to tell you where you were already standing. 

     

    It sounds like you are assuming that when I make an internet connection, my MAC address is somehow transferred to the far-end server.  It's not.  Even if everything you are saying is true, it still doesn't provide other people any information.  I don't think I'll be able to explain that any better.

     

    t

  • 47. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Chris CA Level 9 Level 9 (74,885 points)

    Thor HoG wrote:

     

    That didn't answer the question.  Now that Apple has router AA:BB:CC:11:22:33 is at123 Address, City, St Zip, how would anyone else be able to use that information?

    I answered your question above.

     

    I know you will still not get this answer but here goes.

     

    Your iPad knows the MAC address of your wifi router.

    It sounds like you are assuming that when I make an internet connection, my MAC address is somehow transferred to the far-end server. It's not.

    Yes it is when you are using Apple Location Services.

    Your iPad communicates with the Apple location database (via Apple location services). It says, "I am connected to router with a MAC address of AA:BB:CC:11:22:33".

    This is not in the routing info. This is the actual data being sent. Think layer 2, not layer 3/4.

    The Apple location database says, "Thank you. Based on previous inputs from iPhones which identifed the geographical location of wifi router with a MAC address of AA:BB:CC:11:22:33, the geographiocal location of this router is X,Y, Z".

  • 48. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Thor HoG Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Waste of time.

  • 49. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Chris CA Level 9 Level 9 (74,885 points)

    The only way to get that information is by going to whatever database there was and putting in AA:BB... to look up the address. How do you think anyone would get that MAC address to know to look it up?

    By using Apple Location Services which specifically get this MAC address and passes it to the Apple Location database.

    Wase of time.

    Agreed. Pretty self explanatory above and of you cannot get it, well that's your probelm.

     

    Why do you think the MAC address (really the only thing that is needed) of the wifi you are connected to, is not transferred to Apple via Apple Location Services?

  • 50. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Thor HoG Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I’ve finally found out exactly how this works.   I now understand what BobTheFisherman and Philly were saying – the missing term here is “WiFi Triangulation.”

     

    It has nothing to do with mapping back to your router *from the Internet*.   You kept talking about the access point “you were connected to” but I don’t think that’s what you mean, at least not how I define “connected.”  It doesn’t require connecting to anything.  Many different points of data, mostly signal strength and other identifying information, are collected all the time from many different sources based on all broadcasted info readily available – nothing has to be “connected.” I think this is what you meant by “crowd sourcing” though it doesn’t require connecting to and getting MAC and all that.

     

    My mistake was viewing this from an attacker’s point of view, and trying to figure out *** you were talking about as the only way what you were saying could work is if the iPad was already at the location you were looking for – and that’s precisely what it is doing. That made no sense to me.

     

    In this case, the “Find my iPad” feature would not work unless I was actually connected to a network with internet access.  While the local WiFi *could* use triangulation to know it’s location, there would be no way for me to contact it.   To Bob’s point (I assume he meant “triangulation”) the WiFi at the local box collects whatever data it can about whatever WiFi points are around it, including distance based on signal strength.  Using that information, it basically uses math to figure out what long and lat it SHOULD be at, and puts that into the map point for both mapping (Bing as well) and “Find my iPad.”

     

    This also clears up what Philly was saying about “bouncing around powering off WiFi” or whatever he said, which sounded like he was smoking crack given how out of context it was. Now it makes total sense.   So all points were valid – this cannot be used externally to breach any privacy, nor does it have to do with IP address geo-location (my two points) but it does indeed “use the wifi” to actually triangulate the position based on crowd sources (which you said) and clears up Philly’s point. 

     

    It took some doing, but now the answer is out there with enough detail that it can hopefully help someone.  It gets pretty frustrating when tiny pieces of data are dropped without explanation and/or technical requirements such as “connect” are not defined.  Nor does it help when JobsLover or whatever his name is chimes in with worthless diatribe. 

     

    Thanks to all for playing, I both learned something while ensuring my privacy was not at risk. Win. 

  • 51. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Chris CA Level 9 Level 9 (74,885 points)

    Two different things are happening...

    1. a wifi access point getting into the Apple Location database.
    2. a wifi only iPad identifying a location based on wifi routers/Apple Location database.

     

    1. When an iPhone (any iPhone) picks up wifi signal, it identifies the MAC address (in the SSID as it is continuously being broadcast) and the location (based on the GPS on the iPhone.) This info (MAC address and geographiocal location) are sent to Apple and put into the Apple Location database.

    This is the crowd sourcing I was referring to. There is no specific person updating the databae. It is everyone.

    This wifi hotspot is now in the database. Devices using Apple Location services (Macs and iDevices) can access this database.

     

    2. When an iPad is connected to the internet and Apple Location services are enabled, it will get the wifi router MAC address and poll the database to find out where it is at. It also caches info on other wifi routers in the vicinity.

    If you are then disconnected from the internet, and walk around the neighborhood, the iPad will update your location based on the info in the cache. It is not connected to the internet.

     

     

    You kept talking about the access point “you were connected to” but I don’t think that’s what you mean,

    No, that is exactly what I meant. I mean YOU are connected to YOUR access point. If I went near your house, I would not be connected to your access point. I could not get my location through your wifi internet.

    However, if I had previously connected to the internet with location services enabled, somewhere in your area, it would have cached info on wifi routers in the area and would show my position. Simply getting the MAC address would show me my location.

    By triangulating between your router and others my iPad is picking up, it would seem as if it is using GPS to identify exactly where I am (when it is simply using a very educated guess).

  • 52. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Padwick Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I use NavFree Australia & New Zealand on my ipad2 wifi +3G and it works quite well

  • 53. Re: iPad2 GPS
    jpdemers Level 1 Level 1 (20 points)

    Easy enough for Apple to take that info, streaming in from millions of iPhones, and build a database correlating MAC addresses with locations.  In theory, they (and Google) could lay a map of MAC addresses over the world.  It's a bit dynamic, since devices can be moved around, but if you've got four or five within range they can tell you where you are with very high confidence.

  • 54. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Chris CA Level 9 Level 9 (74,885 points)

    jpdemers wrote:

     

    Easy enough for Apple to take that info, streaming in from millions of iPhones, and build a database correlating MAC addresses with locations.

    Yes, that's what they do. This was previsously mentioned. It's called crowd-sourced data.

    See this -> http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/04/27Apple-Q-A-on-Location-Data.html

  • 55. Re: iPad2 GPS
    rexfromkaikoura Level 2 Level 2 (400 points)

    If u have a iphone u can use that to tether the ipad using hotspot function on the iphone i have a iphone with a navigation app on it when i turn off data wifi the app still shows my gps position which to me suggest that info it is recieving is directly off the  satillite

  • 56. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Thor HoG Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Chris CA is 100% right.  It took me quite a while to get what he was talking about, and even then it took me a couple more times of getting it wrong before I wrapped my head around what was happening.   It was counter intuitive for me as I was thinking of it from a different point of view, but his earlier description should be referred to.  I was actually kind of an *** during the conversation as I thought I was right when I was wrong - so don't heed anything I said

  • 57. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Chris CA Level 9 Level 9 (74,885 points)

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  • 58. Re: iPad2 GPS
    S.462308 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Dear sir , i bought a sygic map my india software for rs 1900 and its saying no gps signal what i must do is there any new gps reciever under 25$ hy does wifi ipad does not have gps chip........

  • 59. Re: iPad2 GPS
    Philly_Phan Level 6 Level 6 (11,705 points)

    The WiFi-only iPad and the iPod do not have GPS and these devices require an accessory.

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