1 2 3 4 Previous Next 375 Replies Latest reply: May 26, 2014 8:09 PM by Scott_R Go to original post
  • 15. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,720 points)

    hansolo415 wrote:

     

    Your help link is very nice.  I think you may be right that the error is happening, because of some sort of wireless phenomenon.  However, don't you think that the program should be smart enough to do some sort of error correction so that if the signal is weak it doesn't accept something that is not good. 

    OSX does lots of that, as do all modern operating systems.  But wireless communication is always the weak link, and there's only so much that can be done with a bad connection, interference, or power problems.  When a NAS is used, it's also involved in the communications and error handling.  Some older ones don't handle all of Apple's error detection properly. 

     

     

    In any case you note that this error only started being reported about May 2010.

     

    Doesn't that suggest something more serious as I'm sure people didn't just suddenly start having WIFI problems after May 2010.

    No.  The verification was added then, to catch problems that were already occurring.  At least, now you know there's a problem before you need the backups and find they're damaged.

     

    Do you have any suggestions of what people might do to try to avoid problems?

    There are a couple in the pink box of #C13, especially the Apple article. Study it carefully.  If the signal isn't good, move your Mac and/or router around to find a better one.

     

    What are your router and NAS plugged-in to?  Could you be having power spikes or dips?  They can wreak havoc.  Consider a good surge protector or, better, a small U.P.S. system.

     

    Is there a way perhaps to change the time machine set-up so it doesn't do back-ups so frequently that they are done sometimes when a machine is about to go to sleep or some other interruption that might not be so good for the back-up.

    It's usually best to find and fix the problem, rather than change Time Machine's behavior.  It handles sleep and most other interruptions without a hitch. 

  • 16. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    ritec Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I think it's missing the point to blame wireless problems.

     

    Time Machine is going to be used to back up laptops and this backup is going to be done over wireless if it is going to be done without user intervention, as any good backup system should. It is essential that Time Machine be tolerant of poor/interrupted wireless connections by design. Many users will also put their machines to sleep in the middle of a TM backup without noticing - TM must also be tolerant of this.

     

    I do have a UPS on my NAS and that has not solved my problems. If I was confident that splashing out on a Time Capsule would solve it I would buy one, but it seems people also have this problem with Time Capsules.

  • 17. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    keithfromminneapolis Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Exactly, ritec.

     

    For Apple or anyone else to blame wireless is missing the point. Wireless is not some uncommon luxury. It's the way people connect. Apple knows this, they sell computers that do not have the ability to connect by any method other than wireless (to people like me). Their backup solution needs to be able to work reliably on these machines.

     

    I also have a UPS on my NAS and Airport Extreme. Power issues are unlikely to be the issue.

  • 18. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,720 points)

    ritec wrote:

     

    I think it's missing the point to blame wireless problems.

    Then why does it only happen on network backups?

     

     

    Time Machine is going to be used to back up laptops and this backup is going to be done over wireless if it is going to be done without user intervention, as any good backup system should.

    Have you used any other app to do wireless backups?  Many folks who have report problems with them, too.

     

    Many users will also put their machines to sleep in the middle of a TM backup without noticing - TM must also be tolerant of this.

    It is.  The next backup after one that failed or was cancelled will do a "deep scan," comparing every directory on your Mac to the backups to figure out what's changed and needs to be backed-up.  You'll see a message to that effect in your system.log.   On Snow Leopard, you'll also see "Scanning xxx items" messages on the TM Prefs panel, but that was dropped in Lion -- it just shows "Preparing backup" for a longer than usual period.

     

     

    I do have a UPS on my NAS and that has not solved my problems.

    Good. That should prevent power problems.

     

     

    If I was confident that splashing out on a Time Capsule would solve it I would buy one, but it seems people also have this problem with Time Capsules.

    Correct.  It's hard to tell, but it seems more common with 3rd-party NASs, perhaps because some don't handle HFS+ journalling properly, and/or don't interact with APF error checking/handling.  Nobody seems to know for sure.

     

    Wireless communication has vastly improved over the last decade or so, but is still the weak link. 

  • 19. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    TheTryst Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I am also having this same problem.  Never had it with my old MacBook Pro (Leopard).  When it died, I bought a new one, with LION.  Now I complete a backup, and within a few days, it tells me I need to create a new one.  It does seem to happen when the backup is interrupted (computer goes to sleep), but this was never an issue with my old Mac.  I am using the same wireless, and same backup drive.  So it is NOT a problem with either of those things.

     

    I referred to the "pink box in C13", and although it points out many sources of interference, none of these have changed in my environment.  And how is anyone supposed to avoid cordless phones, Bluetooth devices, microwaves, etc.?

     

    It's very frustrating because it takes days to complete a new backup, so my computer is essentially out of commission because its's now tied to my network. Also frustrating as it is rather defeating the purpose, as the older backups are no longer available, should I want to restore from a few days ago.  Why does it have to create a whole new base backup if one hourly backup update fails? Why not just ignore that retry in an hour? 

     

    This is an Apple problem, and It needs to get fixed.  This is precisely the kind of problem people do NOT expect from Apple.  It's supposed to JUST WORK.  If we wanted to deal with this kind of nuisance issue, we'd have spent a third of the money and just bought a PC.

     

    Come on, Apple.  You're better than this.

  • 20. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,720 points)

    TheTryst wrote:

    . . .

    I am using the same wireless, and same backup drive.  So it is NOT a problem with either of those things.

    What are you backing up to? 

     

    I referred to the "pink box in C13", and although it points out many sources of interference, none of these have changed in my environment.

    You don't know that for sure.  Have any of your neighbors gotten any new gear?

     

     

    And how is anyone supposed to avoid cordless phones, Bluetooth devices, microwaves, etc.?

    Exactly.  That's the downside to wireless communications. 

     

    This is an Apple problem, and It needs to get fixed.  This is precisely the kind of problem people do NOT expect from Apple.  It's supposed to JUST WORK.

     

    No app ever written is perfect.  In spite of the advertising, nothing JUST WORKs, all the time, in all circumstances.  You're right that Apple is, generally, much better than the others, but if everything Apple always worked, there would be no need for these forums.

     

    If we wanted to deal with this kind of nuisance issue, we'd have spent a third of the money and just bought a PC.

     

    That's an option, of course.

     

    Another is to try a different backup app.  The most popular seem to be CarbonCopyCloner and SuperDuper, a couple of others are ChronoSync and Tri-Backup. Some work wirelessly, some don't.

     

    They're all different from Time Machine, so there will be a learning curve.

     

    Like Time Machine, they all have advantages . . . and disadvantages.

     

    Backups will take far longer, and degrade performance much more, than Time Machine, in the same configuration. (Actually, my CCC backups to a FireWire 800 disk take much longer, and lots more CPU, than my wireless TM backups.)

     

    If they don't do automatic verification like Time Machine, see if there's a way to do that manually.  Otherwise, you may very well have the same kinds of problems as you do now, but you may not know it until you need the backups and find them corrupted or unavailable.

  • 21. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    TheTryst Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I am backing up to WD My Book Live.  Same unit I used before.

     

    You are right that I cannot know for sure that neighbors' wireless gear hasn't changed, however, the likelyhood that the timing was EXACTLY when I got my new computer seems too much to ignore.  And seems to be the common thread in these posts.  New computer/OS upgrade.

     

    It worked seamlessly before.  I started up my new computer with a restore from the backup of my old computer.  No problem.  So I just don't understand why it doesn't work now.  It's so frustrating to have to do new full backup every few days.  I don't want to try a new software, I just want it to work like it used to.

     

    Any other thoughts?

  • 22. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,720 points)

    TheTryst wrote:

    . . .

    It worked seamlessly before.

    Again, you don't know that for sure.  The automatic verification started during Snow Leopard (about 10.6.4, as I recall).  So you couldn't have gotten that message on Leopard.

     

    There may have been problems with the backups that you didn't happen to encounter.  They're intricately linked together, so a problem in one place makes the whole thing suspect, but you may still be able to run backups and see and restore from other parts of it. See Hard Links in How Time Machine works its Magic for an explanation.

     

    Unfortunately, Apple's infamous secrecy means they don't tell us just what the verification is finding that causes that message.

     

    In addition, there were some changes to wireless backups with both Snow Leopard and Lion.  Many NASs wouldn't work with TM on Snow Leopard at all, and it was several weeks before many had upgrades (some never did).  Ditto when Lion was released.  Check with WD to see if they have any upgrades for your model.

     

     

    I don't want to try a new software, I just want it to work like it used to.

    There have been numerous changes in Lion and the upcoming Mountain Lion.  Some may help in some circumstances, some may make existing problems worse (that's the nature of OS upgrades).  I don't know of anything in particular that's going to fix whatever problems you (and I) may have with wireless backups, but it's possible something is coming.

     

     

    Any other thoughts?

    Are you on 10.7.4?  If not, that did help some folks with WIFI problems.

     

    If you want to complain to Apple or (better) file a bug report, see Reporting a Problem to Apple.  Since Mountain Lion is due out in a few months, don't expect changes to Snow Leopard, although it's always possible to get a WiFi update, especially if you have an Apple router.

     

    If your data is important to you, never rely on a single set of backups, no matter where they are or how they were made.  All hardware fails, sooner or later, usually without warning, and no backup app is perfect.  At a minimum, start making periodic backups to an external HD via CarbonCopyCloner or SuperDuper.  If you want the convenience of wireless backups, and think something else will be better than Time Machine, take a look at alternatives.

  • 23. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    RJBismark Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I too am having this problem. On 3 Macs (one older Mac Book 10.6.4 and two MBP 10.7.4)

     

    I have to say that the reasons being presented as to why this is happening sound reasonable as reasons as to why a poorly executed service is missbehaving.

     

    I agree that::

    • Time Machine is is a service built into what is largely becoming a portable platform (MBPs, and Airs)
    • I also agree that the weak link is infact the wireless link

     

    What I do not accept is that the weakness of this link should be cause for continuous corruptions of sparse bundles. These corruptions are inherent flaws in the time machine service. There are ways to ensure interuptions or corruptions to connections do not create corruptions to files. To simply throw our hands in the air and say, "well, that's wireless" is not accepting of the fact that there are ways that apple could fix this.

     

    Let's not make excuses for what is essentially a flawed service and make sure that apple is aware of the flaw and they fix it in subsequent versions.

     

    There are too many of us experiencing this issue for them not to address it.

     

    To repeat someone else on this thread: "Come on Apple! You are better than this"

  • 24. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    hansolo415 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    In my case I have documented the problem occurs as frequently with a LAN connection.  What I did was simply turn off time machine when I was using a wirless connection.  This should have isolated the problem and allowed trouble free back-ups.  Not the case at all.  Now it's possible that the LAN connection is a little weak, but

     

    COME ON, lots of other services work with much weaker connections and have ways to make sure that data is verified and not corrupted. 

     

    I agree whole heartedly this is a lame excuse and Apple needs a different solution.

  • 25. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,720 points)

    RJBismark wrote:

    . . .

    To simply throw our hands in the air and say, "well, that's wireless" is not accepting of the fact that there are ways that apple could fix this.

    Then why don't you tell Apple?   This is a user-to-user forum, for users to ask and answer questions and provide help to each other; Apple does not monitor it for technical content.    Instead, Apple provides several ways to contact them directly.  See Reporting a Problem to Apple.  

     

     

    Let's not make excuses for what is essentially a flawed service and make sure that apple is aware of the flaw and they fix it in subsequent versions.

    Nobody is doing that.  Some of us are providing information about things that can interfere with wireless communications, and ways to avoid, minimize, or eliminate them.  Real-world things that can help many folks now.

     

    There are too many of us experiencing this issue for them not to address it.

    Yes, a number of folks see this, to some degree.  But it is not affecting everyone; in fact, it doesn't seem to be a large portion of users, when you consider how many millions of Macs and Time Capsules are sold.  A number of folks are even using unsupported configurations without seeing it.

     

    To repeat someone else on this thread: "Come on Apple! You are better than this"

    Again, tell Apple.  Call AppleCare.  File a detailed bug report, per the link above..

  • 26. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    drm31078 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Pondini,

     

    I have contacted both Synology (see earlier posts) and Applecare for this problem.  Applecare asks, "do you use time capsule?"...I say "no"...then they say "we don't support any other NAS"....end of phone call.  Got to level 2 support and that was the answer I received.  Moreover, they are aware of these forums because I asked the Applecare person about it and she said that they have reviewed the threads.  However, she said that most people are not using "supported" configurations.  In other words, they are not using all apple products so they are not supporting the issue.  There might be a light at the end of the tunnel since I have read that time capsule is having this problem too...which means Apple should support troubleshooting time capsule which hopefully resolves everyone else's problems.

     

    I have given up on time machine and rely on folder syncronization software for my backups.  Lame!

  • 27. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    RJBismark Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    The number of people experiencing this error is only fractionally being represented in this forum. I have been experiencing this error for various degrees for more than a year and I just finally got fed up with so I hunted down this forum. This is also not the only thread discussing it. It may only be a fraction of people experiencing it, but as you point out, there are many millions across the globe using OS X. A small percentage using those numbers still equates to a significant problem.

     

    Don't minimize and make excuses for an obvious flaw.

     

    As for reporting it to apple. I have through the bug reporting site on the developer portal.

  • 28. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,720 points)

    drm31078 wrote:

    . . .

    Applecare asks, "do you use time capsule?"...I say "no"...then they say "we don't support any other NAS"

    Yeah, they need to use different wording.    What that really means is, the folks at AppleCare don't have any 3rd-party NASs, so they can't replicate the problem.  It means AppleCare can't help, but it doesn't mean Apple doesn't support it.  (That's compliclated by the fact that many NASs don't support Time Machine at all; some that worked on Leopard never got updated to work on Snow Leopard, and some that worked on Snow Leopard never got updated for Lion.)

     

    I figured that out when having a problem with OSX and a U.P.S. system -- got the same "we" don't support it.  It took some questioning to figure out that's because they don't have any U.P.S. systems).   So I submitted a bug report (see link above) and after a couple of weeks, got a very detailed, comprehensive answer.

     

    AppleCare will help those who are having problems with a Time Capsule. 

     

    Moreover, they are aware of these forums because I asked the Applecare person about it and she said that they have reviewed the threads.  However, she said that most people are not using "supported" configurations.

    They may do some data-mining, but they don't (and can't) use the information here to actually resolve anything.  There's rarely much, if any detail, much less logs, configuration, etc.  Many (perhaps most) of the posts here don't specify what version of OSX is being used, or what they're backing-up to.  There's not a whole lot they can do with that.  (And, again, many are using unsupported destinations -- not just NASs that don't fully comply, but USB drives on Airports.)

  • 29. Re: Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"
    Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,720 points)

    RJBismark wrote:

    . . .

    Don't minimize and make excuses for an obvious flaw.

    I'm not minimizing it, but I'm not assuming it's a widespread problem, either.  None of us knows how many people are making wireless backups with Time Machine to supported destinations, much less how many are having this problem.

     

    Most, clearly, aren't having it, or there would be many thousands of posts here (as there were with the group of early-2008 Time Capsules that failed with bad capacitors).

     

    The point is, if you're having this problem, try the things suggested here and elsewhere; in many cases, that will fix it.

     

    If not, report it to Apple (and if your're using a NAS, the maker) and use a more reliable method until/unless they fix it.

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