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  • 2,220. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    gphonei Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    mccass wrote:

     

    Finally

    - I reinstalled OSX Lion, problem still exists

    - In my TimeMachine I switched on the 5-GHz WiFi and connect to that network.

     

    Now my WiFi connection is stable. Strange because before this solution I was also not able to see other WiFi networks anymore.

    It seems(?) that MY problem with the WiFi was on my iMac and i solved by changing something on the TimeMachine.

     

    Weird but i'am happy

    This  particular "solution" has been discussed on the boards before.  Practically, the "WiFi problem" is most likely a bug in "error handling" in the stack.  Some people think it's DNS related, some think it is the WiFi stack.  Some peoples' experience suggests that it could be a hardware driver that has the bug.

     

    Ultimately, many people find that something fixes the problem for them, which is unrelated to what someone else did.  Practically, this really can only mean that there is more than one type of problem which funnels back to the same "bug" in the software.

     

    I think that what really happens, is that WiFi problems with heavily populated areas, create interfering signals, which will cause the WiFi to register a dropped connection, occassionally.  This has probably been happening for some time, but the bug in Lion, whereever it is, is causing the network stack, to loose something such as DNS, or "DHCP renewal" and this causes your connection to not be usable. 

     

    So, when you switched to 5ghz, you may have just moved yourself away from all the interference on 2.4ghz, and now you are not seeing radio traffic interruption between your computer and your wireless access point.  So, your network remains stable now.

     

    If you see occasional disconnections, after making changes, instead of constant disconnections, than you may still have not selected a clear "frequency" for the spectrum you are trying to use.

     

    I think Apple is still not able to really understand what is going on, or they need specific behavior for something else, and can't fix this misbehavior quite so easily.

  • 2,221. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    mccass Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Thank you for your detailed reaction.

    I think it is still strange that my iMac with Lion has that problem with the interference and not my iPhone, iPad, EyeTV, Linksys camera and HP printer

  • 2,222. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    gphonei Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    mccass wrote:

     

    Thank you for your detailed reaction.

    I think it is still strange that my iMac with Lion has that problem with the interference and not my iPhone, iPad, EyeTV, Linksys camera and HP printer

    Software bugs should not be "strange".  They are a part of what happens when complex behaviors in large systems all interact.  Sometimes, it's hard to "know" exactly what interactions will happen when.  Logic is logic, and that you can look at and test.  But, when external events are outside of the control of the test environment, it can be quite difficult to recreate or "test" a particular sequence of events.

     

    Look at the "Weather Guessers" for an example of the most complex interactions.  The micro details of the atmosphere temperature, pressure, and "movements" are nearly invisible without gigantic observation systems. Networking applications/stacks/environments can have simiilarly complex behaviors, especially, for things which are not "sequenced" or "controlled" by the same event sequences.  Finate state machines are often used to try and control the transitions from one state to the next, in protocols.  Sometimes, the complexity of the transitions out of "error states" are hard to get right, especially when there are recurring errors. 

     

    For example, if there where 5 states, and state 1 was an error state, and there were two distinct events to get to state 2, and four distinct events to get to state 4, and 2 other events that might send us to state 1, and state 3 was a stable state, then depending on the rate of one of the two events that go from 2 to 1, it might be possible to sometimes make it from 1 to 2 to 3, but other times, even though the event to get from 2 to 3 is occuring, the rate of the event from 2 to 1, just never lets you get to 3.

     

    This is the kind of thing that I believe is happening with the WiFi stack.  There are specific behaviors of the system which are stimulated by behaviors and thus events of the wifi network, which the Lion driver, or network stack just has problems dealing with.  It's a fact.  Apple is probably trying to deal with it in software, if possible.  However, many people here have been contacted to provide data from logfiles on the system to Apple to see why their connections are failing.  This means, to me, that they are still analyzing the failure modes to determine exactly how/what to fix.

     

    Yes, this has taken a long time.  I think there is some indication based on what has been shared here, that's primarly an attribute of people not using "Apple Care" to report their problems, and also continuing to push back to get the support that they paid for in that contract.  You shouldn't be hateful, but you should be direct and demanding.

     

    It should work, and if it doesn't, there should be something that tells you or them, why it's not working so that you can "fix" the right thing.  The techs contacting people on the boards to send them information, are providing tools that extract the necessary information.  There should be a tool that uses that information to tell you what's actually going on.

  • 2,223. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    CnmiC Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Now the average Apple consumer has to be an expert in chaos theory just to make their WiFi connection work? Or perhaps have some understanding of string theory or error propagation just to troubleshoot this? Ugh.  Let's get real, gphonei.  Nowadays, connecting to the internet with an electronic device, especially an APPLE product, ought to be as as easy and seamless as starting a car.  I believe this is the point mccass, and so many others including myself, are trying to make.  We demand a solution from APPLE as to why ALL of our other devices work with our existing WiFi networks whereas the iMac does not.   In that regard, I wholeheartedly agree with you--we should all be lobbying APPLE and utilizing Apple Care to the max extent possible.  Albeit, in my case the Geniuses admitted to no known issue and simply replaced my wireless antenna to no avail.

     

    To those still reading --- FYI --- I changed my router to the 5GHz ONLY setting and have had no dropped WiFi connections on my iMac since (>2 weeks).  I am still on Snow Leopard 10.6.8 (refused to upgrade since reading all of the issues with Lion). I previously posted about having success turning off the wireless Bluetooth mouse/keyboard.  After that, I also seemed to have interference from a 2.4 GHZ baby monitor so I am truly convinced the issue has something to do with the 2.4 GHz frequency.

     

    Bottom line at the bottom...why am I forced to waste all of this time trouble shooting when I spent much money on an exensive apple computer?

  • 2,224. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    snipjo Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Thanks, I agree. I am troubleshooting for a year now and I am far from being an IT expert, tried some posts and fixes mentionned wo none of them working, I am through a heavy disruption period again and it is really annoying from APPLE not to TRY to help us FOR FREE please as we know they haven't real solution yet !

     

    Very frustrated and disappointed to have switeched to Mac for the first time thinking I would be away from PC problems , Imac was quite an investment in itself and it did not show any expectatons  for  the money paid  !!

  • 2,225. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    Peter_Belgium Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi Snipjo,

     

    I believe you make an excellent summary on how I feel myself....

    It's indeed nearly 1 year that many of us started to struggle with the issue that Apple iniated in its software and doesn't get resolved.

    I would say that Apple is not trying: a couple of months ago, I was contacted by an Apple technician who asked me for some logs; unfortuantely teh communication dropped and last week he took contact again to ask for a status.; I kindly replied that I don't believe in miracles: software bugs don't get solved by itself...

     

    Anyhow, I will still consider to revert back to Windows machines as Apple is not able to offer a very basic feature in computing: establishing a wifi-connection.... never seen before !!

     

    Peter

  • 2,226. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    Carlo TD Level 3 Level 3 (550 points)

    To those still reading --- FYI --- I changed my router to the 5GHz ONLY setting and have had no dropped WiFi connections on my iMac since (>2 weeks).  I am still on Snow Leopard 10.6.8 (refused to upgrade since reading all of the issues with Lion). I previously posted about having success turning off the wireless Bluetooth mouse/keyboard.  After that, I also seemed to have interference from a 2.4 GHZ baby monitor so I am truly convinced the issue has something to do with the 2.4 GHz frequency.

     

    Lion is very good. It will not work with powerpc or rossetta programs... Lion is worth the upgrade in my opinion. (but take note once you go to Lion, you can not go back to Snow Lepoard.)

  • 2,227. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    pbarnes@internode.on.net Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Carlo TD, not true - I "upgraded" my Mac Air to Lion, then because of the wifi problem, reinstalled Snow Leopard onto a freshly formatted disk, no problem, and it now connects reliably over wifi).  It helped to have a Snow Leopard Time Machine drive which I used to re-install the small amount of non-cloud data I needed.

     

    Has there been any comment by Apple about this issue?

  • 2,228. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    pbarnes@internode.on.net Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Oh, and Carlo:  "Lion is very good." !!! Yes, I agree, as long as you don't want to connect to the Internet!

  • 2,229. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    Sentrix_ Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    Just as an update as I've had this problem since I bought my imac, it's not got better at all, but I've found a work around (apart from not using it!) which is to open a ping connection to my router, if I have this running it doesn't cut out. So I open up a terminal window and run ping 192.168.1.1 and leave it running. All seems fine, although I don't use it much now as the screen flickers when scrolling.

  • 2,230. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    Massi123 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I can also once again confirm, that connecting the Imac to the 5ghz band of the router has definetely solved my problems. No more drops since 3 months now. And I am using Lion.

  • 2,231. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    mccass Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    And what i really want to understand is that although this topic has at this moment 364,181 views and 2,230 replies, employees from Apple tell me that they had never heard from this problem. Reactions (feedback) from the customers are very valuable. They encounter issues which passed the Apple testperiod and some of the customers find solutions (maybe not for all). Maybe they use that information but why not share that with us.

  • 2,232. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    Carlo TD Level 3 Level 3 (550 points)

    It also depends on if you have your router set to "create" or "extend" or "participate" in the network (different routers use differnet language (possibly) and different routers have varying levels of difficulty when setting up the network). Also depends on if you have your security set to none, WEP, WPA, and WPA2. Also that your network is set up correctly or needs some tweaking. It also depends on if your using the latest firmware (provided the manufacture created firmware). It also depends on if your router is more than two years old. Take a look at this link.   and read the part under the United States. There is an FCC label printed somewhere on each computer. What does your label say?

  • 2,233. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    gphonei Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    CnmiC wrote:

     

    Now the average Apple consumer has to be an expert in chaos theory just to make their WiFi connection work? Or perhaps have some understanding of string theory or error propagation just to troubleshoot this? Ugh.  Let's get real, gphonei.  Nowadays, connecting to the internet with an electronic device, especially an APPLE product, ought to be as as easy and seamless as starting a car.

    Well, I can understand how nice it would be if that was possible.  However, we are talking about radio spectrum here.  I am an Amatuer Radio operator with and Extra Class License.  That means that I had to learn a lot about RF characteristics to get a license.  I am not an RF engineer, but I do completely understand the complexity of dealing with multiple types of signal modulation (WiFi, Analog wireless phone, Blutooth signals etc) in a receiver which is 1) frequency agile, so it receives everything in the band, 2) louder signals win the battle in wideband receivers 3) part-15 radios have limits on output power that greatly reduce the chance to win in the case of interference.

     

    If people are suceeding by "just switching bands" or "buying a new router", those people are experiencing an "RF" detail that is stimulating "the Lion WiFi bug".  Since others have found that shorter MTUs are working for them, it could be that there is a pulsing RF signal that is creating regular interference that cause packet drops and shortening the packets is allowing more packets to get in between the interference so that the connection stays up.

     

    Others are reporting all kinds of different tricks and hacks and changes they've made to their system and their wireless AP, with no relief.  The problem is that it just might be that they have some kind of off brand WiFi radio that has always had a protocol "bug" or "bad RF signal".   It might of just barely worked before Lion.  Perhaps something Apple did to more closely match the "standards" or to be less tolerant of errors so that something automated could happen faster, is causing the misbehavior to no longer be tolerated.

     

    Many people with problems at one facility have not had problems at others.  A few seem to have problems at multiple places, and that, to me, could just mean that the same "bad radios" are used in the same places.

     

    In the US, there are three distinct equipment vendors.  Cisco/Linksys, D-Link and Netgear all provide solutions that seem to keep them in the market place.  In the consumer stores, this is what you will find on the shelf.  Apple's radios seem to work quite well, and some people switch to them because of other features they have.  When Linksys started timing out NAT translations on idle connections, I stopped buying their gear and switched to Netgear.  In commercial applications, or larger buildings/campuses, I use the ubnt.com radios because they have great admin features, easy setup, and more than twice the power of most consumer gear available, some up to a full 1-Watt, part-15 legal output. 

     

    Like it or not, a lot of things about WiFi, are not simple.  With a pair of radios, it's dead simple.  With the 100's of radios that are not visible in most public places, WiFi breaks down quickly into a nearly hopeless affair of radios continuously transmitting because so many packets are lost due to all the interfering RF from the other radios.

     

    This is why it is important to "switch bands" to 5Ghz where things are spread out more.  So, yes, each of us has some responsibility to understand that the choices we make can have a negative impact on our experience with a particular technology.  The "misbehavior" that is ruining many peoples experience can in several demonstrable cases be worked around.  Some people have spent 10s if not 100s of hours trying different things.  I continue to post "technical" things here, to try and provide enough information for those that don't know anything about what is going on, to perhaps gain some problem resolution skills/steps which will help them to find a solution.

     

    I've changed the Apple CoreWLANWirelessManager application to have a graphical view of the spectrum.  I put it up on one of the "free storage" sites at

     

    <http://uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1339527361&/CoreWLANWirelessManager.app.zip>

     

    I don't know anything about that site, and I see that it "Zipped" the .app file, so make sure you check it for zip viruses before you unpack it.  It might make it more obvious for some, where the clear spots are at.

  • 2,234. Re: Lion WiFi Connection Problem
    gphonei Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    mccass wrote:

     

    And what i really want to understand is that although this topic has at this moment 364,181 views and 2,230 replies, employees from Apple tell me that they had never heard from this problem. Reactions (feedback) from the customers are very valuable. They encounter issues which passed the Apple testperiod and some of the customers find solutions (maybe not for all). Maybe they use that information but why not share that with us.

    The standard PC way of solving problems is to go to the forums and chat because Microsoft didn't use to really support their product.  With Apple, the AppleCare support program is the way to get things fixed.  Many new Apple customers just went and bought a Mac without understanding how real support actually works.  So many times, the PC market is just about finger pointing, saying it's the driver, or the card, or the PC, not Windows that has the problem.  With Apple, the who thing, end to end is supported by Apple.  So, you have every right to expect that Apple will, in fact provide a solution to your problem, as long as you have Warrenty based service agreements with them.

     

    If you don't buy AppleCare, than when your first year goes by, you are on your own after that.  If you have problems after that, it's likely to be a major hardware failure, or an OS/software update problem as we've seen here with Lion's change in behavior.

     

    If you don't call AppleCare, go to the Genius Bar or otherwise use the facilities that Apple provides, you are not going to engage the support systems that Apple's product development and support people are setting behind.

     

    I don't think you will find any information in your warrenty documentation about Apple engineers reading this forum and fixing things described here.