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  • 615. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    dmdimon Level 3 Level 3 (840 points)

    try 256 color mode. No dithering should be happening there.

    ??? OS will dither colors definitely. And AFAIK you can not control in-panel dithering of 6-bit panels.

  • 616. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    Eric Leung1 Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    May I know how the eye strain feels like for those CCFL screens in question?

     

    I remember that the picture wasn't perfect when I used the EIZO and NEC CCFL with the Mac. The texts always seemed to be slightly blurry and they were a little bit hard to focus on. Eyes could feel pretty tired when looking at the screen for a long time.

     

    However, the aluminum Apple Cinema Display which I'm now using doesn't seem to have this problem.

  • 617. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    dmdimon Level 3 Level 3 (840 points)

    /offtop

    NEC for sure and EIZO afaik both have "de-moire" setting set by default to 50%. Actually it blurs picture additionally. Every time with NECs had to set it somewhere to 20% to avoid described by you "blur" feeling. Was years ago, so don't remember exact place in menus

  • 618. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I have the exact same problem. I've had this for 15 years at least. My eyes start to burn and go red within 30 minutes, I watch a problematic display. I do not get nausea or headaches so much, mainly the terrible burning in my eyes, to the point that I cannot even watch TV.

     

    - I had to stop using a 15" Sony trinitron display, some 15 years ago, due to eye strain

    - I've had a couple of laptops with CCFL screen, which caused eye strain

    - HTC Desire HD was one of the worst, I couldn't really use it even for normal txt messages

    - Galaxy s2 was better

    - Galaxy s3 is almost without discomfort, but I still can't read books from kindle, but normal occacional web browsing does not irritate too much

    - iPad 2 I was able to read a book, but eyes were somewhat irritated and red

    - Samsung 27" CCFL PVA panel 275t did not cause

    - Samsung S24A650 LED does cause bad eye strain, if the backlight is not 100 %, otherwise not

    - DELL 2412M causes the worst eye strain, even when baclight 100 %

    - Sony TV flickers, but does not cause problems

     

    SGS3 does flicker, but causes minimal problems, CRT's flickered, but caused no problems exept the trinitron. DELL does not flicker at 100 % but does cause problems.

     

    Clearly a flickering baclight in LED displays, will cause problems. But in AMOLED or CCFL displays, the flicker does not necessarily cause problems. Could it be the fequency or how fast the light source goes completely black?

     

    Other suspect is the AG coating. The dell does have an awful AG coating, which seems to bother my eyes. The Samsung does not have an AG coating.

     

    Or could it be the blue light from the LED displays? I've tried UVEX orange tint protection glassess, which filter blue light almost entirely. (blue leds invisible). Those dont seem to help, instead, seem to give more eye strain. This has got me thinking, that maybe the eye strain comes when the light spectrum is uneven, like with LED backligh, or when using tinted glasses? Really don't know.

     

    But what I do know, is that most CCFL displays without AG coating, flickering or not, do not cause problems.

    Some LED displays without AG coating and non-flickering backlight do not cause problems.

     

    The latency point was also interesing, that someone mentioned. But CRT's have less latency than any LCD, so maybe it is not the cause.

     

    So anyway, it seems to be hit and miss. I need to try for a couple of days all the displays that I use. I have been unable to find the real reason, what is causing the eye strain.

  • 619. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    CoreLinker Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi mojarvinen

     

    The Sony TV, last on your list, is it a CCFL with a PVA/MVA panel like the Samsung 27" that doesn't give you problems? I think we can also assume the DELL 2412M flickers even at 100% backlight. A lot of monitors do.

     

    How long can you use the iPad 2?

     

    I don't think it's the spectrum in your case. It's not like the LED spectrum is any less uneven than the CCFL spectrum, and when you take out the 'notorious' blue spike it should be pretty even.

  • 620. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    CoreLinker Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    And what do you know, the Samsung S24A650 uses an MVA panel!!!!

     

    So it seems LED flicker = bad, IPS/TN = bad.

     

    So... (if my guess about the Sony TV is correct) what makes the PVA/MVA more comfortable? Does it have something to do with temporal dithering? We've seen here that the comfort level of the monitor seemed to change depending on which OS (or rather, driver) was driving it. If that is true it HAS to do with the panel. What can we do to make this better?

  • 621. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    MrBunuel Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    So now, to make this thread even more interesting, come my story. Yesterday I have gotten a second replacement MacBookPro 15 from Apple.

     

    My first MBP (early 2011) had recurring problems with motherboard (it was the 2nd motherboard in this MBP already)  and screens (had 4 screen replacements within 6 months for various reasons). So I got a replacement mid2012 MBP with a glossy screen. The screen however was faulty from the very start, it was flickering, failed to provide any contrast at all and didn't refresh properly during video playback, I reported it to Apple the very first day (actually one of the four screens replaced in my first MBP had exactly the same symptoms). So my replacement one got replaced too.

     

    Due to that I was given a complimentary upgrade to HiRes matte screen (which seemed nice actually), after two weeks of waiting the computer finally came. Now - from the very first moment I started using it my eyes began to kill me, so does my head. It’s a brand new (and custom made) computer, so there's got to be something wrong with the LED backlight.

     

    I never had any eyes problems on my previous MBP, I did have some though with my Dell Studio 1555, which I stopped using and given to my sister, who claims she notices no eye strain. The problems with the Dell Studio were my main reason to switch to Mac. Now MBP has failed me too. The screens seem like a Russian roulette. Some make your eyes hurt and some not. As I've been told - they have no control over whose manufacturing the screen that is being used as a spare part neither they know who made the screen for the mint computer when they box it.

     

    I've noticed Apple CR about my problems. Will see what they are going to make out of them.

     

    But my experience is (as noticed above) screens are the part of the MBP that fail me the most and I’m tired – for last month I not able to use a computer. I’ve paid a lot of money for it.

     

    And since I’m in the movie business, believe me, my work is hurt as much as my eyes.

  • 622. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    Eric Leung1 Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    dmdimon, thanks for pointing out the de-moire setting! I'm not using the NEC monitor anymore, but will surely check on that next time if I experience similar problem.

  • 623. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    Eric Leung1 Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    An update to my "venture" in "training" my eyes to go with the iPhone 5.

     

    Over the past few weeks of trying, I'm now feeling much better when using the phone at home. However, it didn't go so well when I try using the phone elsewhere. Other than eyes train, I could get nausea quickly (sometimes in less than a minute), it feels like trying to read inside a shaky car and it would take around 20min to recover. And that's quite hard for me to get over with that.

     

    I've also tried quite a few different iPhone 5 from my friends as well as inside Apple Store, some how it seems that they could cause strain to my eyes slightly differently. And so far I've seen two of them showing noticeably less strain. (But I didn't have enough time to try thoroughly for sure)

     

    Thinking I could be using a particularly "bad" sample of the phone, I went to the Apple Store and request for an exchange today. (They didn't really want to change the phone for me originally as they think it's working perfectly fine, but they kindly allow a "one time only" exchange for me at the end).

     

    This new phone does seem to be slightly better. The backlight seems a little less harsh. It's still causing the eye strain to me, but the light doesn't seem to cause nausea as easily as the old one. Even when I'm trying at places that used to cause me nausea quickly with the old phone.

     

    So, it does seem the backlight of the same phones perform slightly different from each other, and could cause a different feeling to us with sensitive eyes. Maybe it's worth trying asking for an exchange if a particular screen is making you feel especially bad.

     

    I'll report again as I find out more.

  • 624. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    EyePain20_20 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    In addition to your post I noticed this with the New iPad (3rd gen.). I tried 4 of them.

     

    The first and fourth iPads had a slightly blue tint when viewing a blank white screen and I found this caused my eye strain.

     

    But on the second and third iPads I noticed a LOT less eye strain, almost nil. The screen, though, had yellow on one side on the these iPads.

  • 625. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    Eric Leung1 Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    Did you keep the new iPad at the end?

     

    After trying for so long, I now do think the blue intensity in LED is one of the major triggers to our discomfort. It made our eyes feel strain and triggers the nerve which made us feel nausea (some of us feel headache instead, I guess that's probably triggered by the nausea)

     

    I believe the displays are being manufactured with a slight variance between blue to yellow. The bluer displays are probably those with more blue intensity and thus more likely to make us feel bad.

  • 626. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I have to say, this is an interesting discussion. 5 years ago I did try to find something in the net about display related eye strain, but there was no information. I seemed like I was the only person in the world suffering with this.

     

    The Sony TV is a CCFL, and most likely a VA, as I read somewhere, that Sony & Samsung use VA panels in their TV's.

     

    So it also could be the IPS panel that causes also discomfort. The backlight flicker does cause it for sure, as the Samsung s24a650 does cause discomfort, when the backlight is not 100 %. There are a couple of Youtube videos about the Dell 2412m, where it at least does seem like it would not flicker at 100%, but it could just be that the frequency is so high.

     

    Then there is th HP 24" display that has been measured not to flicker by a couple of sites. I tested it at a computer store, but it felt like it would give me discomfort. Obviously I would need to look at it for hours to be entirely sure, but I got the same feeling with it. That is an e-IPS or IPS panel, with AG coating.  So, either it is the AG coating or the IPS panel then.

     

    I could get a 27" cinema display for testing, which is measured not to flicker, is an IPS and does not have AG coating. That would reveal, whether it is the IPS or AG Coating.

     

    I'm now writing this again with the Dell monitor, starting to feel nauseous, headache an burning eyes.

     

    I'm also trying to get the new Samsung S27B970 for testing. That has been measured not to flicker and has a PVA panel, and does not have an AG coating.

     

    I would like to thank everyone contributing to this thread, as I think this is an important issue we need to get to the attention of the manufacturers. I doubt that it's healthy for even people who do not seem to get eye strain, to look at these offending displays.

  • 627. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    About the iPad. I did read one book with it, so I looked at it some 6-8 hours. I did feel some discomfort, but can't really say how bad it is.

     

    For sure, it is not as bad as the HTC Desire HD, since with that I noticed severe discomfort with only half an hour usage. 

  • 628. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    dj_rag Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi all,

    I see many interesting topics going on now in this discussion, which gives me some comfort knowing i'm not the only one suffering with screen problems (even though I feel it in my work!) but it also makes me so infuriated there's no quick fix out there and no major company will probably ever do anything about it!
    I wish I had a modicum of technical expertise to help as others have helped me on this discussion in the past!

     

    Sorry to jump in with a request but I really need to investigate this asap -

     

    You likely haven't seen my previous posts here so just to summarise I changed from a 2007 ccfl MBP to a glossy and matte one and both gave me migraines. The dell ccfl monitor I used for hours on end during 7 years at my old job never gave me a problem, however since changing jobs the LED Backlit ones at my new job give migraines. I've had multiple eye tests and been to a number of drs who don't find a problem and agree i probably have sensitive eyes to LED backlit screens, as my mum also suffers from sensitive eyes (although strangely enough doesnt have a problem with modern glossy laptops - the worst thing for my eyes!) Therefore I've assumed LED backlighting is the guilty party for me....

     

    My work are proposing I now use a 27inch Dell U2711 Monitor, and my question is as follows....I can't find clarification online as to whether this is in fact CCFL or LED Backlit. I've read that it's LCD (but I understand LED and CCFL can both be LCD?) and Ive also seen it described as "LED backlit CCFL monitor" - is that even possible?

     

    Therefore I really need to be sure if this screen is in fact exclusively CCFL? I was able to try it for 15 mins, at first it seemed fine but i did notice slight discomfort after 15 mins...however this could be due to a number of reasons of course (poor posture etc). Obviously the best way to know would be to put in an 8 hour shift on it again but they seem hesitant to let me do so unless i'm sure it's what I need to work with.
    I think it could be CCFL, however with such a high resolution, and being so large, it could still be hurting me.
    I'm going to call Dell tomorrow and put in some more reading now...but I don't imagine they'll know off-hand. If anyone knows more about this I'd really appreciate their advice! Many thanks in advance!

  • 629. Re: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro
    mvanier Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    The Dell U2711 is definitely a CCFL-backlit monitor.  It's beautiful to look at (very vibrant colors) and extremely adjustable (e.g. if you want to knock down the blue levels, you can).  The one caveat is that some people have complained that the heavy anti-glare coating makes text look sparkly, which some people find very annoying.  The Dell U2410 is a smaller model which is also CCFL, and which supposedly has a less heavy anti-glare coating.  Dell also has a number of LED-backlit displays.

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