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Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"

100100 Views 367 Replies Latest reply: Apr 8, 2014 7:35 PM by stevecook3dw RSS
  • scottdreynolds Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 19, 2012 4:21 PM (in response to mpatric)

    That is my problem as well.  I'm doing a new backup over the wire now, but I'm sure in a few weeks it will fail again and force me to start over.  I'm backing up to a WD MyBook Live Duo.  My other permanantely wired MacBook Pro has never had a problem with a backup to the same disk.

  • iAPX Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 20, 2012 5:28 PM (in response to Folbo)

    Same problem here, with a TimeCapsule.

     

    I had it this summer, then I decided to do a CCC copy of my MacBook Pro, then let the backup work. It solved the problem, while deleting all my history (the VERSIONING that is really a huge plus for most of us). At least for some months.

     

    Now it's back again, and again, my only solution is to loose all my work history. The ugly part is that I could no more search in my history, as I discovered it today, while searching for an interview note, to check things to prepare myself for my new job (beginning mid january).

     

    It's *NOT* a backup, it's totally deceptive from my point of view, 'cause I needed these informations I noted while interviewed.And I am an IT guy, the kinda paranoid that have a bootable CCC backup regularly just in case, so I wonder what may happen to casual users!

  • Lyonnesse Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 20, 2012 11:06 PM (in response to iAPX)

    Totally agree.  I've had a number of attempts to fix thi and they only work for a while.  I've got a Mac Book Air, and am wirelessly attempting to use a QNAP as a time machine.  At some point you realise 2 things:

    1. You didn't buy either piece of kit to waste half your free time 'fixing' them
    2. You cannot risk your documents, photos etc. to something so flaky.

    I've got very few documents that need backing up, so I'm using Google Drive and SkyDrive, as well as copying the documents folder manually once a week to the QNAP.  My biggest investment is in my photographs, which take up too much space for the free cloud storage.  I've got a mixture of manual backups locally, a flickr pro account and a further external drive. 

     

    It would be lovely to have something that just worked without having to take time out to organise it each week.  Like you, I am also in IT, but being on the delivery side, I tend to believe that end users should be free to concentrate on their jobs, not manage their technology.

  • qazxsw143 Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 30, 2012 8:06 AM (in response to Folbo)

    I'm seeing this several times a week.  I'm using a QNAP NAS and I'm not using wireless.  Has there been any progress on fixing this?

  • Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,710 points)
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    Dec 30, 2012 8:14 AM (in response to qazxsw143)

    Some 3rd-party NASs don't meet all the requirements to work properly with Time Machine.  Some that worked on older versions of OSX just need an update for newer versions. 

     

    You might want to check QNAP's forum and/or support.

     

    And/or, there are a number of posts in this thread (and others) about QNAP NASs.  Browse or search for them (probably start at the end of this thread and work backwards), and you may find a solution for your particular combination of OSX version and QNAP hardware/software.

  • aldabergr Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 30, 2012 10:30 AM (in response to Pondini)

    Mr Pondini, thats just BS. Most NAS makers today have upgraded to latest protocol. And if you read the full thread you can see that its seems to have started with Lion, as for me, and continue to be a problem in ML. I also used qnap, but swapped to apple TM to see if it would make any difference, and it does not. It seems to be something which changed from Lion and further, maybe the protocol?

     

    What ever it is, its very annoyhing and it would be helpful if people read up on the full thread before people post suggestions which is not helpful and already discussed. And Apple, please comment, do something? Backup is REALLY REALLY important, at least for me!

  • Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,710 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 30, 2012 11:12 AM (in response to aldabergr)

    aldabergr wrote:

    . . .

    Most NAS makers today have upgraded to latest protocol.

    Yes, most have (but some haven't for all legacy NASs).  And not all users know to get and apply the update when they upgrade OSX.

     

    Thus, it's a good idea to check whether the NAS hardware/software is compatible with the version of OSX.

     

     

    And if you read the full thread

    Look again, please.  I've been following and posting in it for some time (including a post on the first page).

     

     

    you can see that its seems to have started with Lion,

     

    No.  This thread started in Lion, but corruption of Time Machine backups has occured since Time Machine was released with Leopard (corruption of network volumes has occurred since networks were invented).  There are several threads in various forums.

     

    Prior to the 10.6.4 update of Snow Leopard in May of 2010, however, the damage would often go undetected for a long period of time, and when found, various messages or conditions would appear.   The Verify Backups feature (run automatically about once a month or manually via the TM icon in the menubar), introduced with 10.6.4, is what detects the problem and sends the "must create a new backup" message. 

     

    It seems to be something which changed from Lion and further, maybe the protocol?

    Yes, there was a change in the protocol with Lion.  Most NASs didn't work with Lion at all.  Developers had been notified a couple of years in advance, and Lion was made available to them for testing in February of 2011, but few, if any, had updates ready by the July release date. (That also meant that Lion beta-testers were unable to test Time Machine with NASs, just Time Capsules and backups to shared drives on other Macs.)

     

    What ever it is, its very annoyhing

    Yes, of course.  But while it's a single catch-all message, there's not a single cause of the problems or damage.   See the pink box in #C13 of Time Machine - Troubleshooting for some that seem to be fairly common.

     

     

    And Apple, please comment, do something?

    Apple never posts in these forums (except the Hosts often respond to questions or problems about the workings of the forums, in https://discussions.apple.com/community/using_apple_support_communities). 

  • MacPear Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 30, 2012 11:57 AM (in response to Pondini)

    Hey Pondini,

     

    aldabergr is quite right. if you just look at this summary in this thread, you will have to admit that there is a  problem within time machine software, not in any apple OS, wi-fi connections or third party hardware. stop telling the users here they would be responsible for this major bug and stop defending apple, they should rather fix this issue.

  • Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,710 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 30, 2012 12:33 PM (in response to MacPear)

    Oh, please.

     

    The "summary" link you posted is simply to your profile. 

     

    If you'll review this (and other) threads, you'll find a number of different things have fixed the problem for some users, but not others.  Still others never post back, so we don't know whether they were fixed or not.

     

    There isn't a "major bug," or few folks would be able to make network backups at all.  Many do with no issue. We don't know how many, because few come here to report success.

     

    Recommending those using NASs to start by being sure their NAS hardware/software is compatible with the version of OSX they're running is hardly "telling the users here they would be responsible" -- it's a basic troubleshooting step.   There are a few others in the link I provided earlier that will help in some cases.

     

    There may or may not be other bugs that cause or contribute to the corruption.  The only way to find out is to first rule out other problems, then file detailed bug reports with Apple (and, if you're using a NAS, with the maker).  See Reporting a Problem to Apple.  If Apple (or the NAS maker) can identify something, especially from a number of such reports, they may fix it.  That's messy and tedious, of course, but it's what the engineers need.

     

    Just to be clear, I'm neither defending nor attacking Apple.  Like every OS and backup app ever written, there are bugs.  I report lots of them.  Some get fixed, some haven't (yet). 

  • aldabergr Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 31, 2012 7:20 AM (in response to Pondini)

    Mr Pondini, you write very long posts to make your case stronger. The fact is that most people THINK that the problem get solved, including me, but it always cames back. IF your NAS is not compatible then it will not work, its as simple as that. Had a NAS before with the old protocol and it just stop working. Its not like it start to work and later on stop working, the protocol is open by Apple if you buy it, so either way theres a bug apple own. The issue is not fixed, I would argue that its not fixed for anyone, it just very random when it happen. Now its more than 6 weeks ago it happen last time for me, but it might happen again tomorrow, in other words its not a trust worthy backup. THATS the issue, despite your long not so useful explanation.

     

    You might argue that you dont defending Apple but your replies does not help people. They will look for a ghost solution which does not exist. Its Apple who needs to take their responsibillity and solve this bug and do it quick. Or at least warn people that we cannot trust their backup solution

     

    Im sorry if I sound bitchy, im not:), im just very frustrated that apple seems to ignore this issue for a very long time.

  • iAPX Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 31, 2012 7:25 AM (in response to Folbo)

    Like @aldabergr put it rightly, this is *NOT* a third party issue, this is an Apple issue.

     

    The evidence that TimeMachine doesn't work correctly with a TimeCapsule show that it's clearly a bug in the TimeMachine software, or the proprietary Apple protocol extension for TimeMachine over Wi-Fi (and networks in general), as it doesn't happens on USB/FireWire/Thunderbolt hard drives.

     

    I have switched back to an external USB hard-drive for my MacBook Pro TimeMachine backup, plan to get ride of my TimeCapsule as it is totally useless for backup (it's main purpose, it's main feature, but totally buggy and unreliable!).

     

    It happened on my 10.8.x MBP as well as on a 10.7.x MBA, both backuped on the same TimeCapsule. It's just unreliable!

  • Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,710 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 31, 2012 8:48 AM (in response to aldabergr)

    aldabergr wrote:

    . . .

    IF your NAS is not compatible then it will not work, its as simple as that.

    In some cases, yes, but in others, no.  Some NASs seem to be working well, but don't support all the requirements.  In that case, you'll find one or both of these messages in the logs:

     

         Warning: Destination <backup drive> does not support TM Lock Stealing

         Warning: Destination <backup drive> does not support Server Reply Cache

     

    It would be more clear if Time Machine would just refuse to back up in that situation, but it doesn't.  Any number of users who found those messages got updates from their NAS makers.  In several cases, the messages stopped, and so did the corruption.  Unfortunately (as often happens here), several others never posted back with their results.

     

    The issue is not fixed, I would argue that its not fixed for anyone, it just very random when it happen.

    For many folks, it is fixed.  It's hard to tell, because so many never post back with results, but it seems that most with Time Capsules who do report back say they found either a power or network problem (most of those aren't in this thread, or even the OSX forums, but the Airport and Time Capsule forums).

     

     

    You might argue that you dont defending Apple but your replies does not help people.

    Yes, in many cases, it does.  A number of folks have found network problems (weak signal, interference) or power problems (especially momentary dips -- it only takes a fraction of a second).  Some of those folks had Time Capsules, some NASs.  Yet others with NASs found the messages above, and an update seems to have fixed it.

     

    But you're right that others don't seem to have found a solution.  Apple points the finger at the NAS, and the NAS maker points the finger at Apple.

     

    So let me try it this way:

     

    If you're new to this problem, try the things in the pink box of #C13 in Time Machine - Troubleshooting. You may find a solution there.

     

    If you don't, either back up with Time Machine to a more reliable destination, or try a different backup app with the same hardware.  

     

    And report it to Apple (posting here doesn't get their attention).  See Reporting a Problem to Apple.

    If you have a NAS, report it to the maker, too.

     

    Im sorry if I sound bitchy, im not:), im just very frustrated that apple seems to ignore this issue for a very long time.

    I understand, and sympathize.  The problem is, it doesn't seem to be a single issue.  As posted earlier, a number of different things can cause damage, but since 10.6.4, everybody gets the "must create new backup" message.

     

    Worse, the verification process is only run monthly or so, so when you get the message, all you know is it happened sometime in the previous month.

  • Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,710 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 31, 2012 8:57 AM (in response to iAPX)

    iAPX wrote:

    . . .

    The evidence that TimeMachine doesn't work correctly with a TimeCapsule

    It does, in many, perhaps most, circumstances.  I back up to a Time Capsule, an external HD connected to it, and a local F/W 800 drive, in rotation.  I've never had the "must create new backup" in that setup.

     

    Previously, I experimented with backing-up to the same USB drive connected to an Airport Extreme, in exactly the same location the Time Capsule now is, as an experiment.  (Apple doesn't support it, but many folks say it works fine for them.  That did cause corruption every few months for me.)

     

    I have switched back to an external USB hard-drive for my MacBook Pro TimeMachine backup, plan to get ride of my TimeCapsule as it is totally useless for backup (it's main purpose, it's main feature, but totally buggy and unreliable!).

     

    It happened on my 10.8.x MBP as well as on a 10.7.x MBA, both backuped on the same TimeCapsule. It's just unreliable!

    Good.  A direct connection is always the fastest and most reliable way to back up.

  • iAPX Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 31, 2012 9:01 AM (in response to Folbo)

    @Pondini

     

    Something that is working correctly mos of the time and fail for some users, repetitively, on supported configuration is not something that is working, it's buggy, and it's waiting to loose your backup and your file revision. It's just buggy! Worse it corrupt silently your backup, when it warn you, it's already too late!

     

    Direct connection is fastest and safest. But I BOUGHT a TimeCapsule to have a transparent 24/7 backup available, that we don't have to care of, not to use this $300 box as a Wifi Router and needing to connect USB hard-drive repetitively to our laptops!

  • Pondini Level 8 Level 8 (38,710 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 31, 2012 9:09 AM (in response to iAPX)

    Have you ruled out power and/or network interference problems?  That's not easy to do -- power problems can be intermittent and you may not even notice the lights dimming.  Similarly, if you're in an area with a lot of networks (some hidden), cordless phones, microwave ovens, etc., the problems can come and go.

     

    One of the networking gurus posting in the Time Capsule forum a while ago reported that he'd finally found the problem that caused his whole network to crash on very rare occasions -- he happend to see his neighbor across the street coming out his front door talking on a cordless phone and BAM, down went the network!  When he went back inside, the network recovered.

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