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Java and Ipad

61131 Views 98 Replies Latest reply: Jul 20, 2013 6:20 AM by HarryKeller RSS
  • Mrs. Miggins Level 1 Level 1 (135 points)
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    Jan 4, 2013 9:42 AM (in response to HarryKeller)

    Oh dear... Seems you were just trolling - I mistakenly thought I was having a constructive discussion with a level-headed individual - my bad...

     

    LAZY!!! ??? Wow, that's pretty strong.

     

    ...hence my bracketing of the word, to show I don't consider all Java developers lazy, but certainly I know some programmers who admit to using cross-platform solutions because they just want to get the job done, and not bother optimising for each platforms strengths...

     

    We're not after the snazziest user experience here

     

    You may not be, but Apple wants its products to stand out. Why bother releasing a product if its just going to end up looking like all the rest (or worse)?

     

    I don't give a flying f*** about the "best" possible user experience

     

    Hmmm... which I would guess is why you'll never see your products flying off the virtual shelves of Google Play, Windows Marketplace, Amazon's App Store and the Apple App Store...

     

    Java is not a "feature."

     

    Support for Java is a feature of the device (whether that's a phone, tablet, SmartTV, games console, whatever). Without the device "featuring" support for Java, users of those devices can't use software that relies on Java.

     

    I am really sick of the Apple apologists and Apple chauvinists, like you Mrs. Miggins, telling me how my business should be run.

     

    The tell-tale signs of a true internet troll - saying people did things, they never did... and accusing people with a different opinion as being "apologists" and "chauvinists". Sad that a senior member of the community lowers themselves to standards usually more befitting of the Generation Y types. Personally, I could not care any less how your business is run.

     

    Oracle has already demonstrated Java on the iPad, but Apple won't let them deploy it.  It's that simple.

     

    Exactly. It's Apple device, therefore they get to choose what technologies, development languages etc. they allow in that product. Just like you get to choose which old programming languages to base your whole business on.

     

    (the advanced version of the Surface is the first I've seen) that allow Java.

     

    Because it runs the full (desktop) version of Windows 8, not the mobile device optimised Windows RT. It also suffers half as much battery life, and is twice the thickness. Not really a mobile device...

     

    Java is central to a great deal of excellent Internet software.

     

    Really? I haven't seen any (excellent or otherwise) internet software that required Java in about 10 years.

     

    I get it that you all are in love with Apple.  Love is blind.

     

    Substitute "Apple" for "Java" in that sentence and apply it to yourself. It's not only Apple - ALL the other successful mobile device manufacturers don't support your beloved Java either. Ever thought there may be some very good reasons why they all, independently, arrived at the same decision?

     

    Just because hundreds of millions of mobile device buyers don't share your enthusiam for Java (that you've chosen to base your whole business upon), and you've been caught out by the rapid rise of these devices that don't support Java   (so you can't target your software at these users) you expect all highly successful OS and device manufacturers to change, rather than you change and move your business with the times.

     

    Seems you've already cut off your nose... shame...

  • HarryKeller Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 4, 2013 10:09 AM (in response to Mrs. Miggins)

    Name calling won't make you right ("Troll" indeed!).

     

    Much of what you say actually is correct.  It's the final conclusions with which I take exception.  Java has evolved considerably over its lifetime and remains "new" today.  The lack of Java on these devices you attribute to some sage decision when it actually is the result of lawsuits and bad blood between companies.  You've found an excuse for something that you prefer.  That's a common mistake in thinking.

     

    I have worked in very many languages and have found Java appealing for a number of reasons.  However, I switch quickly IF you can show me a platform-agnostic language in which I can create and maintain 20,000 lines of source code efficiently and which will operate efficiently on the various platforms, and you give me a resonable migration path, then I will gleefully change.  Java, per se, is not the issue.  It's having a platform-agnostic language that has the power to support real-world serious applications.

     

    I've asked a few people for this solution and have sought out such solutions.  So far, no one has shown me an alternative that I can use.  I don't care about Java but about practical results.

     

    Apple initiated this idea that you cannot write whatever you choose on their particular piece of HARDWARE.  It may have worked, but it's nuts, IMO.  Apple is a great marketing engine with some good technologists to build stuff that Jobs insisted could be built.  Its products are as much (or more) about appearance than performance and capability.

     

    My market is education, not stuff that jumps off of some online software store.  I don't ever expect to sell through that channel because I sell a service, not a product or piece of software.

  • SingaporeJames Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
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    Jan 4, 2013 7:42 PM (in response to Mrs. Miggins)

    Wow so you think that by having flash an java that our Internet experience would be diminished some how. That a java an flash plugin would inhibit our browsers to do what exactly.  What would I not be able to do if those 2 plugins, add-ons, bit off code were allowed on my iPad or iPhone? Please tell me because I can only find pros to having it.

  • SingaporeJames Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 4, 2013 7:52 PM (in response to Mrs. Miggins)

    Yes the only other mobile platforms are android and windows and they both allow java an flash plugins or the ability to have third party browsers that support it.  Why, because we the consumer are right, we want and we'll apple will eventually bend, googles android OS will force their hand as long as Samsung htc and others keep producing the outstanding devices we have seen lately

  • deggie Level 8 Level 8 (44,840 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 4, 2013 7:59 PM (in response to SingaporeJames)

    5 and 1/2 years and counting. You are way late to this argument.

     

    There is no way for Apple to "bend" on Flash, or get a Flash plugin, as Adobe shut down the mobile Flash division, laid off 400 workers, and is not producing code for mobile Flash.

     

    As far as Java, even when the iPhone was released there were many threads regarding Flash, maybe one concerning Java. There was media coverage regarding the iPhone not having Flash. There was almost none regarding Java. There were adds to sell other tablets that stressed the fact they had Flash. They didn't mention Java (and it didn't work for most of them).

     

    People have a choice. If they need Java they can buy a device that has it. Apple has made their choice not to offer it.

  • SingaporeJames Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 4, 2013 9:42 PM (in response to deggie)

    Really cause I just installed the latest flash update on my galaxy s3 an the latest java on my MacBook and with AIDE (thank you open minded and forward thinking developers) I can use my android device to access most java sites.    At the end of all this it will be those who can not compromise to meet the desires of the consumer who will fall...We the consumer don't care about the corporate posturing between oracle, Microsoft, apple or google. We just want to be able to view websites and not be irritated by error msgs telling us this or that.

     

     

    I have worked in IT for 20 years and I totally get the idea that we know better an should dictate to others what and how they should use their computers, networks, devices, etc...because we know what's best... 20 years and I will admit it now....WE ARE WRONG....apple didn't limit java and or flash for the good an protection of us consumers.....they didn't because they can play nice with others an vice versa. 

     

    The company i work for provided me an iPad, I love my MacBook Air...osx still supports flash, java, MS's silver light, and many more...the day it doesn't and there are sites that I go to that still utilize one of these I will happily change platforms.  I want what works and I don't care who makes it!!!  My loyalty goes to the best product.  I am using my iPad to argue with you and read a book and that's about it... When I change companies giving this back won't phase me least. 

  • Mrs. Miggins Level 1 Level 1 (135 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 5, 2013 3:16 AM (in response to SingaporeJames)
    Wow so you think that by having flash an java that our Internet experience would be diminished some how.

     

     

    Nope. I never said anything like that. You must be confusing my comments with someone elses, or simply imagining things...

     

     

    the only other mobile platforms are android and windows and they both allow java an flash plugins or the ability to have third party browsers that support it.

     

    Great, then your problem is solved. Sell your Apple devices that don't do what you want, and buy Android or Windows devices that suit your needs perfectly. It's always best to do research and buy the things that meet your requirements. You wouldn't buy a bicycle to take four kids to school and then complain it didn't do what you wanted, would you?

     

     

    apple will eventually bend

     

    You think? As time passes (5.5 years and counting), and Java and Flash lose even more relevancy (desktop next), the chances of Apple supporting those technologies will get less, not more. Adobe stopped developing new versions of Flash for Android over a year ago. Only bug and security fixes are being released now. No new versions, ever. Flash for Android has gone from all the official mobile app markets.

     

    I just installed the latest flash update on my galaxy s3

    I can use my android device to access most java sites.

     

    So you don't have a problem then. Choose whichever device most suits the task you want to accomplish. Just like you would choose to use your 5 seater car to take the kids to school, rather than your bicycle.

     

    You do have a choice, which devices to buy and use.

  • HarryKeller Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 5, 2013 8:05 AM (in response to Mrs. Miggins)

    Your favorite Internet troll has come back.  Haha.

     

    I see many arguments from Java haters.  Still cannot figure out why they hate Java.  Perhaps, someone can enlighten.

     

    One argument says Java is old.  However, Mac OS X runs on Unix, which is much, much older.  Java has evolved and really is much different that its first release and continues to grow.

     

    Another argument is about security.  I've seen some pretty bad security breaches in browsers.  Why don't you tell people not to use them?

     

    Then, there'e popularity.  Sure, many more people are aware of Flash.  It's available for consumers and at their level of consciousness.  Java is strictly for programmers, real ones who don't just write scripting languages.  Of course you'll find fewer programmers than consumers.  Duh!

     

    Another argument is about writing the "best" (meaning shiniest) software by customizing for the given platform in the native language for that platform.  If you really are concerned about being a native, how about going back to the 1960s and writing in machine language  -- all hex?  Having some particular feature that's available only on one platform may seem cool, but it's just silly and puts you under the yoke of that manufacturer.  You're flogging their hardware for them, becoming their shill.

     

    A final argument has to do with vendors not wanting to go to the trouble of putting Java on their machines.  However, for the iPad and for Android, Oracle has already done that.  The vendors are blocking release.

     

    My challenge still stands.  No one has taken it up.  Show me a powerful and platform-agnostic development language other than Java.  Scripting languages need not apply.  Java already runs on the iPad and Android.  So, in theory, it still can be that language.  However, computer-industry politics prevent it.  Apple is a very stubborn company.  I'm not surprised that it's still holding out against all of the developers, many Apple stalwarts in the past, who have asked them for Java on tablets.

     

    We'll just see what transpires.  Will the iPad cave as it loses market share?  Wait and see.  In the meantime, if you're a Java developer or user, put a little pressure on Apple.  As much as they'd like to chain developers to their platform, they care more about actual sales than about marketing strategies.  I certainly will vote with my wallet and will continue to write Apple and on Apple forums that Apple should just allow (not put) Java on the iPad.  I'm doing the same with Google.

  • deggie Level 8 Level 8 (44,840 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 5, 2013 9:04 AM (in response to HarryKeller)

    You must have a lot of time to waste. Guess the Java market is not doing too well.

     

    Writing here will accomplish nothing. Apple doesn't read these posts.

     

    Apple doesn't even include a Java plugin with their computers anymore. And they will never add it to iOS, especially given the success of the App Store.

     

    End of argument.

  • HarryKeller Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 5, 2013 10:16 AM (in response to deggie)

    So, who's wasting time?  At least I'm promoting a cause.  And success is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

  • BobTheFisherman Level 6 Level 6 (10,570 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 5, 2013 10:17 AM (in response to HarryKeller)

    HarryKeller wrote:

     

    So, who's wasting time?  At least I'm promoting a cause.  And success is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

    You are not promoting a cause. You are flogging a dead horse.

  • HarryKeller Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
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    Jan 5, 2013 10:20 AM (in response to BobTheFisherman)

    LOL!

  • Mrs. Miggins Level 1 Level 1 (135 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 6, 2013 8:47 AM (in response to HarryKeller)

    I don't hate Java - I just have had no personal use for it whatsoever in years. If Apple wants to allow Java in iOS and it doesn't adversely affect it in any way (or can be disabled) it doesn't bother me in the slightest if they do that. Same with Flash, Silverlight or any other 3rd party Internet plugins.

     

    However, if I choose to buy a device with specific features then I want to benefit from software that takes advantage of those features, otherwise what is the point of buying any particular device over any other? Consumer choice disappears if all hardware is made the same by the software running on it.

     

    When the iPad was launched it had 100% of the tablet marketshare. The minute a competitor sold even one of their rival devices, iPad marketshare started going down. When you are at the top, the only way is down. So iPad marketshare is likely to continue going down for the foreseeable future as more rival devices start selling (even small numbers of them). But that fact has nothing to do with Java, and even if Apple allowed Java on the iPad, it would make zero difference to the iPad's marketshare. There are much higher priorities on consumers wishlists.

     

    You're looking at this from a software developers point of view. Trouble is, only a tiny percentage of end users care about having Java. Those are the people that are buying devices like the iPad. Those are the people that fund the development of future generations of iPad, not the developers still using Java...

     

    The iPad isn't lacking software without Java. If the software you make isn't available on the iPad, something similar is likely to be from another developer. As more and more iPads (and other Java-less devices) start being used in schools (as they are in huge numbers), educational developers who want to target their wares at such markets are going to have to quickly embrace these new/different methods of writing their applications for these new devices, before they get left behind and are made irrelevant by quicker moving software companies.

     

    You take a "wait and see" attitude, and others will eagerly jump ahead of you.

  • HarryKeller Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 6, 2013 10:22 AM (in response to Mrs. Miggins)

    "... it doesn't bother me in the slightest if they do that."  And it shouldn't.  We agree here.

     

    "... I want to benefit from software that takes advantage of those features, otherwise what is the point of buying any particular device over any other?"  The device becomes a "commodity," a fate that Apple strives hard (with tons of marketing dollars and image-oriented development) to avoid.  They're succeeding as your posts suggest.  It's hard to argue with success.  But, I do it anyway.  :-)

     

    "So iPad marketshare is likely to continue going down for the foreseeable future ..."  Yes, mathematically unavoidable, but revenue is more important.  When that starts to decline, it will make a difference.

     

    "... even if Apple allowed Java on the iPad, it would make zero difference to the iPad's marketshare."  That's unproven.  However, if you were to argue that the difference would not be significant to Apple's share prices, I'd have to agree.  Java eduation applications are a fraction of all education applications (more are in Flash), and education is minute compared to consumers.  Apple's success has innoculated them.  They don't have to care about education.

     

    "There are much higher priorities on consumers wishlists."  Absolutely agree.  Most consumes don't even know what Java is.  They also don't know what Objective C is.

     

    "You're looking at this from a software developers point of view."  You're right here too.  Used to be that Apple cared about developers.  Now, they care about forcing developers to write software that will only run on Apple devices.  While not a tyranny, it does demonstrate a tyrannical attitude.  I understand the motivation, which has been around for a very long time in one company or another.  Microsoft tried the same thing and actively worked to defeat Java.  They lost.  Of course, that was eons ago in Internet time.  ;-)

     

    "... not the developers still using Java."  That's what irks me.  There's more to operating a company than just watching next quarter's revenue and profit margins.  Apple is pushing aside a large international group of developers who work in Java and do so for many good reasons.  Yes, there are also reasons to write in other ways, but the spaces are not congruent.  There remains plenty of good rationale for Java.  Look at the "Powered by Java" stickers on many electronic consumer devices for just one example.

     

    "The iPad isn't lacking software without Java."  Here's where we disagree.  I agree that the iPad has plenty of software, too much actually.  The class of applications that do not run on an iPad is a small fraction of the whole world of potential applications.  Many will not miss these at all.  Almost all will not even know that they're missing.  So, Apple's front-end strategy of laser-like market focus will work just fine.

     

    "If the software you make isn't available on the iPad, something similar is likely to be from another developer."  You cannot know that in any way imaginable.  Not only is nothing like my software available on the iPad, there's nothing like it available anywhere.  Furthermore, no one is likely to invest over a million dollars to create it for a subset of a subset of the education marketplace.  Creating an iPad-only version of the software would make a subset of the subset of a subset and result in too few sales to justify the hefty price of creation.  Easy solutions like HTML5 will have terrible performance and create maintenance nightmares.  The iPad will have morphed into something quite different by the time that I have any worries here.

     

    "... quickly embrace these new/different methods of writing their applications for these new devices ..."  You misunderstand the education marketplace if you believe this.  It's extremely conservative as a whole.  Besides the "new/different methods" are going to change rapidly, and the huge cost of creating my software would never be repaid in a splinter market such as this one.  Vaadin (from Finland) and Code Name One (from Israel) are better approaches than attempting to rewrite 20,000 lines of Java for a very uncertain return.

     

    "You take a 'wait and see' attitude, and others will eagerly jump ahead of you."  That's the last thing I'm doing.  I was just suggesting that things will change sooner rather than later.  As I cannot scientifically prove my case (and neither can you), I just mentioned that time will tell.  As things stand, I know my views are correct, although I agree on many of your points (just not on many of the conclusions), but also know that time will either prove me correct or show an entirely new way that neither of us has mentioned.

     

    Apple can get away with dissing a large segment of the most advanced software developers in the world, but they shouldn't.  Just because you can is not a reason for doing.  Anyway, I expect that 3rd-party efforts, OpenJDK, or a resolution of the bad blood between companies will provide ways to continue to support the millions of lines of Java code out there.  It already has to a partial extent.

     

    I'll just add one more small note.  The rest of the world is not quite so enamored with the iPad as the U.S.  This is especially true in countries with lower per-capita income.  Turkey is deploying tablets to every single school child, and they're decidedly not iPads.

     

    My challenge stands unanswered.  Show me the platform-agnostic  and powerful (not scripted) language that I can use in place of Java and give me a migration path.  The only ones I have heard of use the JVM.

  • deggie Level 8 Level 8 (44,840 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 6, 2013 10:25 AM (in response to HarryKeller)

    What point is there to your challenge? Become a developer, use the SDK, write apps for iOS.

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