1 2 Previous Next 22 Replies Latest reply: Jan 28, 2013 6:46 AM by Luis Sequeira1
rich montgomery Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

In dealing with Final Cut Pro X's Pro Apps team I was told something by TWO different Pro Apps people I find troubling. They each stated that you should ALWAYS edit fotage (meaning keep your projects and events) on the INTERNAL BOOT DRIVE. This would provide the best performance and is how FCP X is designed to work. I am not kidding or misunderstanding. I even clarified this to make sure we are clear between a second internal drive and the actual boot drive handling the OS. I was told "in the new 64 bit architecture, FCP X is designed to edit from the same drive the OS is on, the only issue is storage space". It was then reiterated that this is the best way to use FCP X. I even explained that if I was using some kind of consumer level format, I could see doing this, and explained I shoot in AVCCAM 1080p. Apparently what format you use does not matter either, it is designed to handle anything I was assured. So, my 3  year old MacBook Pro will edit RAW 4K footage from the boot drive? I am amazed!

 

  Sadly, the solution provided to my FCP X issue is "wipe the hard drive completely and start over." This after paying $99.00 for the Pro Apps support and talking to no less than 8 people. I am certain none of the Pro Apps folks I talked to really understood what I am even dealing with.

 

  Their Pro Care is not what it used to be, although the person who told me this said he has been doing this for 7 years. Unbelievable.

 

Comments?


MacBook Pro (15-inch Mid 2009), OS X Mountain Lion (10.8.2), G Drive for editing, 1TB, 7200rpm.
  • 1. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    Tom Wolsky Level 10 Level 10 (106,175 points)

    I was told something by TWO different Pro Apps people I find troubling

     

    Please give exact information about who these people are and how you reached them.

  • 2. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    rich montgomery Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    By calling customer care at 800-275-2273 and more notably 866-752-7753. Each time going through tier 1 people first, then being transferred to the Pro Applications support team, for which I paid $99.00. This all started last weekend. Same issue, unresolved, but I paid again today. (I will get that money back) I posted here about this issue, but it is way too complex and lengthy (meaning all the steps I have taken) to go into here. Each of the people I spoke with identified themselves in Pro Apps support as "Senior Level Advisors".  I only have first names of course. I have been through the ringer and back on this one, and I am reserved that my best bet at this point to to wipe the hard drive, not because all other avenues have been exhausted, but because I do not have faith that anyone else I will talk to with Apple will be of any more help. I used to brag about their customer support (I had Apple Care for the extended 2 years and called a number of times) this is the first time I have dealt with this kind of incompetence and ignorance. I spoke to the same person 3 different times today, I was transferred back to him because he was listed on the Case #, but I know he did not want to keep dealing with my issue. I do not want to post his name publicly, will email if you really wish to pursue and know people over there, which I imagine you do. This is the gentleman who stated it was always best to edit footage from the boot drive and the 64 bit architecture was designed for that. I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but its very disappointing to me that this happened, and happened with more than one person. I did call customer care separately about a refund and the poor quality of service, someone said they would call back. 

     

    As a side note, when I went to the Apple Store at Pentagon City in Arlington, VA today to get further help, a young man I spoke to who was introduced as a "Certified Final Cut Pro" advisor asked me if I had Final Cut Pro 9 or Ten. When I smiled and said "I think the previous version of Final Cut was actually called 7" he said "no, I have 9", then he said "oh, oh, I meant 7 what did I say?"  Maybe it's just a bad luck day for me. I did actually spend an hour there. Hardware tests checked out, but this certified person clearly did not  know how to navigate around in FCP X. He later said "it's just like iMovie, which is why I am not used to it". I actually got a lot more help from the computer tech who said she was entirely unfamiliar with the application.

     

    At this point I am hearing the voices of all my pro colleagues who kept saying "dont get FCP X, you will be sorry". I bought it the week it was released, been through the trials and bugs, but I have found it fast and robust. I am now convinced that Apple support has taken a remarkable decline in knowledge and customer service. This was not one call, but over a dozen, not one person, but 8 I have written down names for. It was like dealing with the cable company or Sprint in the old days.

  • 3. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    digibudII Level 2 Level 2 (415 points)

       that's a shame but not a shocker.  apple turned the lights off in the "pro" room and didn't look back. I doubt FCPx will ever be turned into a pro app but will probably always be a prosumer kind of thing.

  • 4. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    Paul Figgiani Level 3 Level 3 (785 points)

    Rich,

     

    What was the issue that you needed to resolve regarding FCPX?

     

    -paul.

  • 5. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    rich montgomery Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Paul, thanks.

     

    Here it is, there are actually two things.

     

    1) When rendering in FCP X, rendering stops, spinning disc appears, the only way out of this state is to manually shut the laptop down.

     

    What I have done:

     

    --bought a second external drive (just like the one I was using). G-Drive 1 TB, 7200 rpm, firewire 800.

    --moved all project and event files to new drive, fe-format old drive re-import old media

    --behavior exists on both drives

    --behavior also occurs when working from the internal boot drives (meaning I moved one project and all event files to the internal boot drive and this still occured). This was suggested as a permanent solution by TWO Apple Pro Reps who told me you should always edit from the internal boot drive. I have a MacBook Pro, it only has one drive in case anyone thinks they may have been talking about a second internal drive, I clarified this with both reps who told me this. Insane, I know, but true.

    --I have trashed preference files, re-installed FCP X, had the harware scanned (by Apple at their store), run Disk Warrior, checked for permission errors and corrupt files (using Pro Maintenance Tools)

    --this behavior also happened with totally different media, not just my camera clips

    --my camera records AVCCAM and I usually shoot 1080p 60fps, and import as optimized footage, which transcodes to Apple Pro Res.

    --The behavior happened in a totally new project, (whose media was not even imported until a few days ago) using imported highly compressed QT files, jpegs, it has happened when rendering title elements from FCP X (not third party stuff) and generators from within FCP X

    If there is a pattern of some kind to why this happens, I have not seen it.

     

    2)  After a project is totally rendered (this render fail described above happens intermittently, but more and more frequently) I close the project, then when re-opened, some clips show as being unrendered, when FCP X renders them, they are now corrupted, elements like titles now flash (I dont mean dropped frames, I mean strobe). This has happened a lot.

     

    I have a MacBook Pro from 2009, 2.8 GHz Intel Core Duo, 4 GB RAM 1067 MHz DDR 3, 500 GB hard drive.

     

    I have used FCP X since it came out, this is a recent issue. So hardware checked out, behavior occurs with a variety of clip elements, always happens during rendering, no other time. Internal or external drive does not matter, and there appears to be no pattern, I have been dealing with this for two weeks, so I have seen it happen in a variety of projects.

     

    --the $198.00 I paid to Pro Care support (Apple Extra care expired) for this was wasted, not becuase they could not fix the issue, but because some of the people I talked to were unprofessional, all said they were "Senior Advisors" in Pro App support--these were the folks who told me "always edit from the internal boot drive, it's how FCP X was meant to be used". I wasted so much time on the phone and the reason I had to buy care twice, is because every time I called in, I was told "sir, your Apple Care has expired, you have to purchase pro support to talk to a rep, it is $99.00. Every time. Over 20 calls in total. The "agreement" number I was first given was not valid, even though my card was charged and fully processed. So, I bought another, and every time I called, the agreement number was invalid, so not only was pro support a total letdown, but it would take me 10-20 minutes each time I called just to get through to a tier one person, THEN, be passed up to pro care. It was like dealing with the cable company. I will get my money back. One customer care person called me last night to tell me, "sir, I see you talk to 'x', he suggested taking your laptop to the Apple store for a hardware test. So, if you dont do do that, they cannot help you any more". The not funny part of that is I had taken my laptop in and had the test done hours earlier, and had two subsequent conversations with 'x' even before I called her. I am done with the keystone cops game. I will file a formal complaint to the State Attorney General to get my money refunded and am left with no other option but to wipe the whole hard drive and start a new.

     

    Seriously, if I could afford it, I would dump all this and go straight to Adobe, like so many others have and so many warned me about FCP X and Apple's attitude toward the product. If they truly have the kind of pro people I have talked with in the past, who were knowledgable and professional, they have all been on vacation the last 10 days or so. Meanwhile, the projects fall further behind and money goes out the door.

  • 6. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    Paul Figgiani Level 3 Level 3 (785 points)

    Rich,

     

    I'm sorry you are going through this. The reason why your post sparked my interest was due to your AVCCAM reference. I shoot AVCCAM 1080p 24 with a Panasonic HMC-150 camera ...

     

    ... I'm running FCPX on a 2006 MacPro/10.7.5 - 8 gigs of RAM. ATI 5770 1 gig card. The machine has 4 internal hard drives. My only issue  with this system is Multicam. It runs very choppy, even when switching to available Proxy files. Otherwise - the environment is rock solid. In fact I have background rendering turned off. I'm able to work in RT without rendering. There are a few plugins and transitions that cause choppy playback. This is to be expected, and the choppiness goes away after rendering. I have my Playback Preference set to Optimized/Better Performance.

     

    Most of the time my clips are copied from the card to the Events(s) folder(s) located on the internal Media drive. On a few occasions I've imported clips that were located on the system drive without copying the files to the Media drive. I didn't notice any difference in system performance. Granted I'm not cutting docs or films with extended durations that include a large amount of complex effects. OTOH for the type of stuff that I do - never had a problem.

     

    I haven't tested this, but ... I'm not so sure a FW800 drive is suitable for stable performance. If someone has any insight on this I would love to hear it.

     

    When you import clips are you copying the source files into the Events(s) folder(s)? Have you tried switching your Playback Preference to Proxy?

  • 7. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    Tom Wolsky Level 10 Level 10 (106,175 points)

    Thanks for the detailed report. Have you posted it to feedback?

     

    1) You can't just force quit the app Opt-Cmd-Escape? You have to hard reboot the computer?

     

    2) You're a liitle short of RAM. I assume you're not running anything else at the same time.

     

    3) What's the graphics card? Failing renders and bad renders may be a graphics card problem. I doubt it's the drive, but you could try without the drives connected in a new user on in case there's some user specific software conflict.

  • 8. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    rich montgomery Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I have not posted it anywhere else. I just threw the "always edit from the internal drive" out there to warn others that Pro Apps support aint so pro anymore.

     

    The ram should be fine for this program and has not been an issue in nearly two years. It's at the edge I know, but you cannot upgrade RAM in a MacBook pro.

     

    No, you  cannot Opt-Cmd-Escape.

     

    The Graphics card is

    NVIDIA GeForce 9400M

     

    A full hardware check was done at Apple, no issues. I have tried creating a second user, and was able to get the strobing playback duplicated, not the spinning disk hangup, but this was when I was on the phone, I did not try very long, or do alot to duplicate the issues. (this was all done from the internal boot drive, events and projects) But, yes, there was one issue that came back with a new test user. The new test user was created as an admin as well. What is also strange is that when say a generator (specifically in this case one in titles called "arcs") gets corrupted, replacing it with a new generator from the filters window does not fix it. I have to delete it from the timeline (and all titles attached to it, and replace everything from scratch) then usually the render freeze happens, but not always, there is no pattern. It happens to different titles, generators and clips. Moreso it seems with titles. All of these are FCP X, not third party.

     

    I never run other apps when editing. Also I am the only user of this machine.  This does seem to be some root level problem, like I said, I am resigned to wiping the hard drive again. But, I will lose some older paid for apps like iWork 08.  It was just that I never spoke with anyone who I felt like knew more than me, or was really interested in helping. Three said "I will stay with you and see you though this, we'll get it fixed" and said they would send contact info, but did not, and did not respond to multiple emails sent over a week's time. It was not like I was being a jerk to any of them, I only really got frustrated yesterday, mostly over having to pay a second time for support and STILL being told I do not have  a working agreement number. People make mistakes, but it's how you respond to the errors. In this whole issue, I never dealt with anyone I felt took a serious interest or had the knowledge. Hence, my posting about editing from the internal boot drive.

  • 9. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    rich montgomery Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I shoot with both Panasonic AG HMC 40 (just sold it) and my new Panasonic AG AC 90 (love this camera).

     

    I have always used optimized media so the clips are transcoded to Pro Res and generally dont have space issues. A lot of things I do not keep forever, sometimes it is a promo for a local theatre company, and one the output is done, no need to keep, and I keep stuff I need to on a separate drive as camera archive in case I ever need it again.

     

    I have not had issues with my workflow or RAM power until about 2 weeks ago. It might still be a graphics card, but at the mac store yesterday, the one person who was knowledgable, said everything she was seeing pointed to a software conflict at the root level. Which is what tipped me to think I should wipe it clean. I am just always afraid to because in the past whenever I have done this, something always ends up lost, something that later cost me time or money or clients. I would not be able to rebuild using time machine, just bring all data back as folder I suppose, I am going to get them to help me do it later today. I think

  • 10. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    Tom Wolsky Level 10 Level 10 (106,175 points)

    Pro Apps support aint so pro anymore.

     

    It never has been, or pro apps support in the retail stores. The pro apps tech who told you he was using the internal drive of his computer for seven years has probably been telling customers the same thing for seven years.

     

    but you cannot upgrade RAM in a MacBook pro.

     

    You can in a 2009 MBP. Easily. Well not easily, but it's not hard. I can do it, so your probably can to.

     

    I don't think the graphics tests they run are sufficient for this type of problem, especially if its software related interacting with the graphics card. See thread on the 680MX graphics card in the new iMacs. I'm sure they all test out perfectly.

     

    I'd urge you to report the whole problem with details on your hardware to feedback. That goes to the actual FCP engineeers not to support.

  • 11. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    rich montgomery Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I wish I could get to one of those engineers, I had an issue when FCP X first came out and eventually talked to one over the phone. All I dealt with back then seemed on their game. I just thought Apple was better than that.

     

    I have another genius bar appt. today. Should I let them do the long hardware test? They say it could be a day or two and is much more extensive.

     

    I would likely try to buy a new iMac before paying hundreds for a better card and trying to install myself. It seems they would  not do it at the Apple store, only replace the same card. 

     

    here is the full system report on the ram, when I paid for the upgrade, they put two 2GB cards in instead of one 4GB, see anything of interest here?: 

     

     

    One card slot says:  NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT

     

    the other:   NVIDIA GeForce 9400M

     

     

     

    NVIDIA GeForce 9400M:

     

      Chipset Model:          NVIDIA GeForce 9400M

      Type:          GPU

      Bus:          PCI

      VRAM (Total):          256 MB

      Vendor:          NVIDIA (0x10de)

      Device ID:          0x0863

      Revision ID:          0x00b1

      ROM Revision:          3448

      gMux Version:          1.8.8

     

    NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT:

     

      Chipset Model:          NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT

      Type:          GPU

      Bus:          PCIe

      PCIe Lane Width:          x16

      VRAM (Total):          512 MB

      Vendor:          NVIDIA (0x10de)

      Device ID:          0x0647

      Revision ID:          0x00a1

      ROM Revision:          3448

      gMux Version:          1.8.8

      Displays:

    Color LCD:

      Display Type:          LCD

      Resolution:          1440 x 900

      Pixel Depth:          32-Bit Color (ARGB8888)

      Main Display:          Yes

      Mirror:          Off

      Online:          Yes

      Built-In:          Yes

  • 12. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    rich montgomery Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Memory Slots:

     

      ECC:          Disabled

     

    BANK 0/DIMM0:

     

      Size:          2 GB

      Type:          DDR3

      Speed:          1067 MHz

      Status:          OK

      Manufacturer:          0x80CE

      Part Number:          0x4D34373142353637334548312D4346382020

      Serial Number:          0x877A5221

     

    BANK 1/DIMM0:

     

      Size:          2 GB

      Type:          DDR3

      Speed:          1067 MHz

      Status:          OK

      Manufacturer:          0x80CE

      Part Number:          0x4D34373142353637334548312D4346382020

      Serial Number:          0x877A51AD

  • 13. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    Tom Wolsky Level 10 Level 10 (106,175 points)

    Ah right the machines with two nVidia graphics cards. I've seen problems with them in the past.

  • 14. Re: Editing from Boot Drive?? Apple says yes.
    rich montgomery Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Should I see if I can get them to replace it with a single 4GB card, I remember at the time when I first bought it, it was something I was thinking should not be done, but was assured that the performance would be the same.

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