4 Replies Latest reply: Jan 29, 2013 11:18 AM by cris is bliss
cris is bliss Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

I'm creating House/Electronic Dance Music, which uses repetative basslines that are rather continuous. I'm at the mixing/mastering stage of a project.


Bass Sounds in the ES2 that are 2 or more voices and in unison go VERY out of phase.  I checked with the corrolation meter.  This could be a big problem since I've read that many big clubs' sound systems are in mono.  The patches that are in unison are nice in stereo, but in mono the Low frequency disappears.  Taking the ES2 out of Unison dramatically changes the sound and EQing the low up doesn't replace the fullness that is lost. 


I tried making the sound mono and EQing the low end, but again when setting my speakers to mono the bassline is weak.


I searched on line for solutions to phasing and came across the Mathew Lane DrMS spatial process ( http://www.mathewlane.com ) , which seems like a good tool to have, but I'm not sure it would help in this instance.  There must be a way to tame this with the native Logic Plugins.


In the future I know to check each track for phasing issues as I create them but right now I have a song with 7 different mixes that use the ES2 for the bass and I dread having to come up with a new bass sound as this one was working so well. 


Maybe I'm making too much over this as I don't believe Apple would create a product that doesn't work well, and I haven't seem many post with people complaining about phasing problems with Virtual instruments.



Thanks in advance

Logic Pro, Mac OS X (10.6.8)
  • 1. Re: Sounds in ES2 out of phase
    Miles Fender Level 3 Level 3 (780 points)

    It's not just an ES2/Logic thing. Stereo synth patches are often somewhat out of phase, because that's a way to make them "stereo" - phase is used essentially as an effect to make them wide and cover the stereo image.


    Probably two reasons you haven't seen many posts about this in regard to other VI's: one, becuase people generally don't check their mixes in mono nearly as much as they should, and two, phase is much more of a problem with bass instruments. Low frequencies suffer far more from phase cancellation effects when stereo is summed to mono than high frequencies do.


    Typically, bass should be in mono (as should the kick drum). Widening effects should be done with a short stereo delay - that way you can get a sound that doesn't vanish when folded to mono.


    There are things you can do in Logic to address the phasing, such as putting the Direction Mixer plugin on your ES2 to narrow the field. But you will likely find that as you narrow the field, phase cancellation will start to occur and the sound will thin out - it sounds like the phase effect is an inherent part of the sound you are using. You can experiment with short delays and EQ after narrowing the sound to try to thicken it up again.

  • 2. Re: Sounds in ES2 out of phase
    cris is bliss Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Are you suggesting delays under 30 milli seconds and panned up the center or to the sides

  • 3. Re: Sounds in ES2 out of phase
    Miles Fender Level 3 Level 3 (780 points)

    Panned to the sides, in the 10-30ms range. You'll have to experiment with it as it will depend on the mix.


    Also search the interwebs for terms such as "stereo widening" and "Haas effect" to learn more.

  • 4. Re: Sounds in ES2 out of phase
    cris is bliss Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Thank you very much for your help