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Is There A Fix For My Shorted Out Wall Chargers?

2657 Views 37 Replies Latest reply: Feb 27, 2013 7:58 PM by Bandit7 RSS Branched to a new discussion.
  • crh24 Level 3 Level 3 (920 points)
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    Feb 21, 2013 11:19 PM (in response to Bandit7)

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

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    There is a direct relationship between size of battery and its optimal rate of charge.

     

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    Not necessarily.  It depends upon the design of the individual cells and how they are arranged.

     

     

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

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    It is very important to take the battery capacity into account when charging it up with higher wattage chargers. This is called rapid charging, am I correct?

    <...>

    Not with Apple iOS devices.  None of them ever enter a state that can remotely be called 'rapid charging'.  True rapid charging does shorten the life of the battery due to heat buildup and associated problems.

     

     

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

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    If you google effects of rapid charging in lithium polymer rechargable batteries, you will find many articles written about how repeated rapid charging of any battery will reduce that batteries life span and also drastically reduce the number of times that it can be cycled.

     

    <...>

    None of those apply to the battery curcuitry in Apple iOS devices.  They are never 'rapid charged' by any compatible Apple Charger.

     

     

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

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    The recommended charge rate for these batteries is anywhere from .2C to .3C where C equals batteries Capacity as rated in AH, or Mah. So i am going to stand by everything that I have written before. I have a good number of years of working knowledge that I go by. I never make a statement unless I am sure of it, and to be sure of it, means I have researched it first hand. Some people will say that charging upto .5C is safe for these batteries but there are many more who go by that .3C per hour rate. So any battery being charged at .3C will be fully charged in 3&amp;1/2 hours. Unless it is in use during charging. Assume the IPad Mini has 4AH capacity. That is 4,000Mah. Charging it at optimal .25C would require 1 amp per hour for four hours. So that would be the 5 watt power cube. Using a 10'watt charger would give a full charge of 2 amps per hour in two hours. That is written as .5C. Some people don't mind the long term negative  effects this will result in. Other people are more conservative. Considering there is a new IDevice cycle of one every 6 months,

     

    <...>

    You are confusing general battery theory with a particular battery implementation.  What you are saying makes sense for NiMH  or NiCd batteries that do not have smart charging circuits, but does not make sense for the lithium ion batteries with smart charging circuitry used in iOS devices.

     

     

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

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    Anyway, reading what you wrote carefully I see that what you are writing must also include some version of the corollary statement of what you wrote along the lines of "each IDevice must and does have a highly sophisticated and semi intelligent computer subsystem which must have capabilities that would require enough "smart" circuitry that would and must be capable of not only continuously monitoring the devices internal battery's constant SOC but would also postulate this computer system having power input control filters, input monster filters as well as delta V termination of charge abilities, and computational prowess at making these "power draw" micro second decisions while also being able to not only include the power or load drains of an actively used while charged IDevice. Am I correct?

     

    <...>

    Bingo!  Every modern lithium ion battery--and even some NiCd and NiMH batteries--I have ever seen used in a design for a computational device since the early 90's has such smart circuitry. In the case of AA or AAA type cells the circuitry is sometimes built into the device and sometimes in an external battery charging system.  Sometimes it is in the battery package if the battery is removable and sometimes internal to the device if the battery is not removable.  All of the Apple iOS devices certainly contain that circuitry.

     

     

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

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    Such sophisticated systems are most likely not included in most if not all of Apples IDevices. I personally ( and this is just my opinion ) do not think that this technical capacity exists yet. I would not trust any of my own IDevices to turn

    "Off" charging at any time they are connected to a charger. In fact Apple itself warns NOT to leave IPhones plugged into chargers all night as that will result in overcharging the battery's! It certainly overcharges my Iphone4 and my IPhone 4S. And the battery life drops for the next few days until I just keep it topped off which seems to negate the ill effects of overcharging.

     

    <...>

    Such 'sophisticated systems' have existed for at least 20 years.  I remember them existing in the battery packs we used when we designed portable printers and portable cassette tape drives (data, not audio) in the 90's.  A simple google search for 'lithium ion battery charging circuit' will bring up lots of data including this array of circuits which range from simple .1C circuits to extremely complex 'smart' systems.

     

    As to overcharging--while remotely possible with early Apple systems it is just not possible with later Apple iOS devices.  In fact, the system is designed to actually discharge the battery for a short time in a cyclical manner.  That is why sometimes your iOS device will read 100% charge after charging all night and sometimes it will read less.

    late-2012 27&quot; i7 iMac, 32GB, 3TB Fu, OS X Mountain Lion, iPad '4'; ATV3; mid 2012 MBA;
  • crh24 Level 3 Level 3 (920 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 22, 2013 6:47 PM (in response to Bandit7)

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

    I wanted to add that in your reference to Apples Compatibility List you may have confused compatibility with capacity.

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    One more thing then I am done with this thread.

     

    http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4327

     

    As to my earlier stated information that the modern circuitry will charge and discharge a bit:

     

    crh24 wrote:

     

    As to overcharging--while remotely possible with early Apple systems it is just not possible with later Apple iOS devices.  In fact, the system is designed to actually discharge the battery for a short time in a cyclical manner.  That is why sometimes your iOS device will read 100% charge after charging all night and sometimes it will read less

    <...>

    That info comes from this:

     

    http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/27/apple-explains-new-ipads-continued-charging- beyond-100-battery-level/

    late-2012 27&quot; i7 iMac, 32GB, 3TB Fu, OS X Mountain Lion, iPad '4'; ATV3; mid 2012 MBA;
  • Bandit7 Level 1 Level 1 (60 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2013 8:18 PM (in response to crh24)

    Thank you for your time and efforts. My sincere apologies for off topic content.

    I could not link back to this thread for some very good reasons, as I felt rather badly in that regard.

     

    I still did receive the email notifications of your further posts and was most grateful for your patience and the link you did send me to that incredible thread on just this subject. I guess I may have been able to see it in your emails. I have been reading it every evening. It is very instructive.

     

    Once again, I appreciate your patience and help. I am very happy that you were able to have those last completely off subject posts of mine removed. My bad.

     

    Congratulations on your service..... I deeply respect that. And I just learned a lot in our discussions and in the one that you suggested last. Also I did check every link you sent except for the circuitry one. I think I can do that again, but I am having trouble signing into this thread to get it.

     

    If you would not mind, perhaps you would find a minute to send that one link again.

     

    With all due respect sir, Cary C.

  • crh24 Level 3 Level 3 (920 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2013 10:24 PM (in response to Bandit7)

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

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    If you would not mind, perhaps you would find a minute to send that one link again.

     

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    It was a link to a Google search.  Just search for "lithium ion battery charging circuit". You can also just click on the link in this post.

     

     

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

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    I am very happy that you were able to have those last completely off subject posts of mine removed. My bad.

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    I just asked that they remove the post with my profile in it.  I don't know if they opted to or had to remove those following, too.

    iPhone 5, iOS 6, iPad '4' 64GB AT&T (2), iPad 2
  • Bandit7 Level 1 Level 1 (60 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 25, 2013 12:00 AM (in response to crh24)

    Thank you. I am still reading that one thread! You are right, there is a lot of information in there that would have cleared up many of my misconceptions. I also looked through the circuit diagrams that the google link took me to.

    While I cannot "read" the circuitry and there were so many, I did look at them carefully. I can see that most of them show diagrammed circuitry for Internal lithium polymer or Ion nattery Chargers. A lot of those internal charging diagrams show a great deal of "smart" charger circuitry. And when I looked at some of the dates a bunch of them were from the 1990's as you had stated.  This is probably why you sent that link?

     

    The idea that you understand each and everyone of those diagrams is daunting. -:)

     

    Plus you are right you were not being that confrontational. I have had many analytical conversations with the same overtones. You were being analytical. In that thread, there are just as you say, some major Confrontations.

     

    Is it possible that demographics may be playing a role here? That instead of the answer being This OR That, perhaps it is This and That, were everyone in the thread is correct. Looking at this major battle, LOL, what did cross my mind is trying out the idea that both sides are right and finding a condition that could have been overlooked. In your very informed opinion, not all Con Ed power has to be at the same purity level within the same city.

     

    I live in the Barrio, which is a ghetto, and we get terrible electric current in the summer, as we are browned out first before the better neighborhoods get cut. My business takes me into my clients homes so while my refrigerator is struggling to run on 104 voltage supply ( measured ) 10 blocks south on Park Avenue, 1 half a mile away, they have all appliances plus ACs running perfectly with full power. To make a long point shorter, can some people's IPhones become slowly degraded if they live in ghettos or adjacent areas, where the utility company does not maintain their lines very often, where wiring is sometimes 80 years old, and where it may be physically dangerous to send repairmen into?

    I tried using a modified sine Wave Inverter on my 210AH solar system. It came with a warning that I should not use it for any sensitive devices

  • Bandit7 Level 1 Level 1 (60 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 25, 2013 12:04 AM (in response to Bandit7)

    Not to use chargers on it. I switched over to a pure sine wave inverter Immeadiately. So is it probable that it is the location of certain iPhone users and the condition of their mains electrical power that could be slowly burning away at the built in charging circuitry I have been looking at? Just a thought and I hope I didn't write too much or on the wrong subject. Thanks again.

  • Bandit7 Level 1 Level 1 (60 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 25, 2013 12:09 AM (in response to Bandit7)

    Then if you look at the demographics of a gentleman much like yourself, computer technician being just your starting point, upwardly mobile, regular and hard earned pay raises and bonuses, as a consumer you will seek out better areas to live in, raise your family in, send your children to school in, not just you but everyone who has worked so hard at school, then a masters, perhaps further. So in that group, power quality delivered from the major electrical utility company would be made of that pure sine wave cleanest level of external power. No degradation of IOS internal charging smart circuitry.

  • crh24 Level 3 Level 3 (920 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 25, 2013 2:01 PM (in response to Bandit7)

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

    Not to use chargers on it. I switched over to a pure sine wave inverter Immeadiately. So is it probable that it is the location of certain iPhone users and the condition of their mains electrical power that could be slowly burning away at the built in charging circuitry I have been looking at? Just a thought and I hope I didn't write too much or on the wrong subject. Thanks again.

    I've seen very strange things happen to electrionc devices--many of which most engineers would say aren't possible.  If you place a 'normally' before the possible, I'd agree with them. Power spikes and interruptions can cause electronic equipment to do strange things.

    late-2012 27" i7 iMac, 32GB, 3TB Fu, OS X Mountain Lion, iPad '4'; ATV3; mid 2012 MBA;
  • crh24 Level 3 Level 3 (920 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 25, 2013 2:30 PM (in response to Bandit7)

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

    <...>

    While I cannot "read" the circuitry and there were so many, I did look at them carefully. I can see that most of them show diagrammed circuitry for Internal lithium polymer or Ion nattery Chargers. A lot of those internal charging diagrams show a great deal of "smart" charger circuitry. And when I looked at some of the dates a bunch of them were from the 1990's as you had stated.  This is probably why you sent that link?

    <...>

     

    The 1990's reference in my postings came from my own experiences, I did not look at any of the images close enough to see a date. I sent the link primarily to give a visual insight into the fact that 'smart electronics' is used in battery charging and there also exists a myriad of techniques that have been and are still being used.

    late-2012 27&quot; i7 iMac, 32GB, 3TB Fu, OS X Mountain Lion, iPad '4'; ATV3; mid 2012 MBA;
  • Bandit7 Level 1 Level 1 (60 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 25, 2013 6:35 PM (in response to crh24)

    You wrote

     

    I've seen very strange things happen to electrionc devices--many of which most engineers would say aren't possible.  If you place a 'normally' before the possible, I'd agree with them. Power spikes and interruptions can cause electronic equipment to do strange things.

     

    Would you be able to quote any examples here?? This sounds very instructive. Also very interesting as well.  is asking about them, is asking you to expand on this, is that within protocol?

  • Bandit7 Level 1 Level 1 (60 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 26, 2013 6:16 PM (in response to crh24)

    I finished reading the entire thread last night. I really loved your post. You have a great sense of humor, which I didn't know about before seeing that post. Calculating the real differential between  water hose flow thru capacities at different diameters which are Cross Sectional was just what everyone following that thread needed. You brought it all back into perspective. I really was laughing as I read it.

     

    But to stay within the context of the thread, there was a link posted to a YouTube video

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC4gPxc89Wg&sns=em

     

    where it was demonstrated by using a Kill a Watt meter that had the Apple 12 watt power source connected to its output side, That the wattage reading on the meter when the 12 watt power source was attached to the IPad 3 the meter showed 12 watts being drawn through it, and then by attaching the same power cable to an iPhone 5 the meter showed a drop in wattage consumption to exactly 5 watts. Just as you tried to explain to me so many times, because I can be such a stubborn "#%*+"

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC4gPxc89Wg&sns=em

     

    . I did try the same experiment, I have 2 of the same devices used in the video. Kill a watt.

     

    I did get one normal reading on my IPad 2, it was using 10.1 watts so then I plugged the 10 watt source into each of my IPhones. Initially the two #4 phones were consuming 5.8 watts on the same meter with the same 10 watt source. The iPhone 4S I recently purchased was consuming 6.5 watts! They were all on while I tested them. Putting them to sleep reduced the power draw level by about .3-.5 watts. I then wrote this all down. Switched the source to one of my apple 5 watt cubes, woke up all the IPhones and I got the same exact readings using 5 watt power source that I got with the 10 watt source. Proof to you once again. The power sources wattage doesn't affect the IOS devices energy draw.

     

    However a few minutes later on the same power cube of 5 watts the 4's headed down to 5 watts, but the 4.s it never went under 6.5 watts. Until it hit about 85-90% charge where it dropped down to under 5 watts and then less again, which looks a lot like a power regulater system going into the absorption phase after running at full flow for the first 80% of capacity. So draining it to under 80% was relatively easy and once again it registered 6.5 watts. In that video the iPhone 5 registered at a perfect 5 watts power draw.

     

    So I posted this in that thread, but the reply I got back basically negated the measurement techniques of the one used in the video. I matched the method used precisely. I even got the same results from both of my Kill a Watt meters.

    And I got the same results on 2 different 5 watt apple power sources and on one 10 watt source. So I am controlling for possible equipment defects.

     

    I realize that I am not measuring how much of that 6.5 watts was actually going into my iPhone 4S, that was what was pointed out to me in the reply I received, but then again, neither was the gentleman in the video measuring the actual iPhone device power going to the device. He was just measuring the power sources watt usage plugged into the meter which was plugged into the 110 volt power strip. the same way I set it up. So I should have seen what the video showed which is 5 watts per phone.

     

    I did see that regardless of the 10 watt or the 5 watt supply the phones were drawing the exact same amount of power 5-6.5 volts as they were on the 10 watt source. My hat is off to you. Again my sincere apologies. I have never done anything like I did before and I never would do that again.  I am still horrified that I did. I don't know what came over me.

     

    Since the reply itself basically negated the results obtained in the You Tube video link which a lot of people really agreed with strongly including Lawrence F and myself as well.  I would have replied back but that thread had gone on for a very impressive amount of posts, and I calculated that perhaps asking you for some help and advise here, would be more productive.

    Over there unless I could post directly to just one or two of the participants, perhaps to Lawrence F I am just asking for a whole other world of pain and arguments. What do you think is happening to my phones? It seems plausible perhaps that the iphone4s its power regulating circuits may possibly not be so great, or am I missing something once again??

     

    Plus The iPhone 4"s initially were also drawing 5.8 watts each. Though the dropped to 5 before that 80-85% level was reached. Not quite like the video's precise and clean results?  This was all a major surprise to me. I can't adjust it, nor would I try to without a third meter to verify the two I have. Now instead of finding solutions occasionally for fellow apple IOS device owners, I find that I have power issues that to me are inexplicable, ( but probably arent obscure to you) right after I finally really got the concept of Internally built chargers and internal sophisticated charging circuits!

     

    If I didn't have 2 kill a watts I would think it was a malfunction in the meter itself. But I do have 2 of them, and they both read the IPad power draw exactly to specifications.

    So what do you think about that... Ha!! Ironic isn't it?

  • crh24 Level 3 Level 3 (920 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 27, 2013 4:13 AM (in response to Bandit7)

    Bandit7 wrote:

     

    You wrote

     

    I've seen very strange things happen to electrionc devices--many of which most engineers would say aren't possible.  If you place a 'normally' before the possible, I'd agree with them. Power spikes and interruptions can cause electronic equipment to do strange things.

     

    Would you be able to quote any examples here?? This sounds very instructive. Also very interesting as well.  is asking about them, is asking you to expand on this, is that within protocol?

    Many of them came from troubleshooting electronic citcuitry that gave strange results when all outward appearances, even voltage measurements, showed the circuitry to be operating normally.

     

    An example of this is a calculator circuit that operated in an unpredictable manner after subjecting it to voltage spikes of extremely short duration on the power bus or via a static charge or even EMI.  I once had a calculator running off of a power supply with a very unstable output--but it wasn't until I put an oscilloscope on the output of the supply that I discovered it was defective--even a good voltmeter showed it to be operating 'normally'.  Yet every time I ran a calculation I got a different answer.  Switching to battery for the power solved the problem.  If the calculator was better designed it would never have happened, but since all outward appearances were normal some made noises about the 'ghosts in the machine' before I switched to the battery source.

     

    It basically comes down to the fact that as long as the design limitations are observed the desired outcomes are for all practical purposes100% repeatable.  Exceeding even one design parameter can cause unpredictable results.  The 'problems' arise when an observer doesn't realize that design parameters are being exceeded.  Static charge or EMI in the presence of a solder joint acting like a diode can cause a voltage to accumulate on a semiconductor which can destroy it.  It can also cause an unpredictable change in it's operation without physically damaging to the device itself.  Allow the static charge to dissipate or shield against the EMI and the 'problem' of unpredictable output is solved.

     

    --

     

    In the case of your iPhone 4S drawing 6.5 Watts of power from the supply it can be caused by several things--I don't know what Apple's spec is on the allowable charge current in the 4S so 6.5W may be ok.  If the phone gets excessively hot at 6.5W then it's likely the current being drawn from the supply is approaching or exceeding the spec. 

     

    It isn't clear to me in reading your note if your 5W cube would supply the 6.5W or if that was only when using the iPad supply.  If the watt meter reads 5W when that phone is connected to the 5W cube and 6.5W when connected to the iPad supply then the charge rate using the 5W cube is current limited at a state below the phone's maximum thirst for amperage. That particular 4S will charge a bit faster on the higher wattage supply because it is drawing the max current from the 5W cube and still wanting more which the 10W or 12W supply will provide.  Within normal tolerances charge rate is proportional to current draw.

     

    It is also true that if the charging curcuitry in the phone is out of tolerance, i.e. defective, it is possible to cause problems when charging with the 10 or 12W supply but the damage would be caused by the defective phone and not defective theory.

    late-2012 27&quot; i7 iMac, 32GB, 3TB Fu, OS X Mountain Lion, iPad '4'; ATV3; mid 2012 MBA;
  • Bandit7 Level 1 Level 1 (60 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 27, 2013 5:22 PM (in response to crh24)

    Great post.. This is fascinating information for me. Are there any books that you may feel like recommending I read?

     

    And that is what my main question was about, that YES the 4s was drawing the same 6.5 watts from the 5 watt cube!

    And it drew the same 6.5 watts from another apple 5 watt cube!! Plus it drew the same 6.5 watts from the 10 watt Apple cube. I use the word cube meaning adaptor, or power source, etc.

     

    So how can a 5 watt rated power source put out 6.5 watts??? I got the same readings from two apple 5 WATT cubes, and when I tried a generic 5 watt power source the same iPhone 4S was drawing 6.2 Watts! I believe that it would have pulled the 6.5 watts with the generic 5 watt 5 volt cube but that the generic cube was unable to deliver more then the 6.2 power draw from the Iphone 4s. As for specs on the iPhone 4S it has a 3.7 volt, 1420Mah capacity, or 25 watt hours is what I believe is on the apple spec sheet on their site. But the 1420 Mah is cited in every website I researched.

     

    As for how it is possible for the IOS device to pull 6.5 Watts on several different 5 watt power sources I am at a loss to figure out and am hoping that perhaps you can understand this "phenomena" much better then I can.

     

    I can't measure the DC charge levels that are going from the "5 watt" power source that is pulling 6.5 watts on the AC side, to my iPhone 4S input pins. The meter I used was exactly the same as the one in the video. It seems to be accurate since it displays 10.2 watts when I plug the Ten Watt cube into my IPad 2 and the meter, which is plugged into house current on a surge protected power strip.

     

    The iPhone 4S draws the 6.5 watts from BOTH of the Power Sources!! From both the TEN Watt and also the FIVE WATT source.

     

    I always assumed that a rating on a reliable power source device could not be exceeded. But that is the case here. If it was only exceeded by 10% I wouldn't think much about that. But it is exceeded by 30% of its ratings. 5 Watts x 1.5 Watts

  • Bandit7 Level 1 Level 1 (60 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 27, 2013 5:27 PM (in response to Bandit7)

    I meant to write 1.5 Watts divided by 5 Watts. I hit the Add Reply button by mistake.

  • Bandit7 Level 1 Level 1 (60 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 27, 2013 5:41 PM (in response to Bandit7)

    Also I believe that Apple does not post any Battery Specs on the Iphone 4s. The 25 watt hours I mistakenly quoted may have been the IPad 2 specs. From memory I believe the IPad 2 has  a 25 watt hour rating and the IPad 3 is listed as 42 watt hours by Apple. I don't know what other specs you might be interested in. If you let me know I will find them on a good website that goes into Apple IOS device Specs more thoroughly. I will check Apple again and if I can find IPhone power specs I will send a link over. Thank you!

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