1 9 10 11 12 13 Previous Next 461 Replies Latest reply: Mar 31, 2014 3:40 PM by Marsdy Go to original post Branched to a new discussion.
  • 150. Re: The new Mac Pro
    Ziatron Level 4 Level 4 (3,265 points)

    1. Any argument revolving around the Mac and PC is moot to my mind, because the OSX beats, has beaten, and will continue to beat for the foreseable future anything Microsoft offers in it latest Win operating system. I've been on both systems. The Mac OS since 10.0.0 and arguably before has been more stable than its contemprary counterpart. Since 10.5 it's rocked. 10.6.8 rules in my world.

     

    Agree completely.

     

    What is causing many in our organization to switch from Mac Pro to Windows is the new Mac Pro hardware configuration.  NO complaints about the Mac OS, which they consider to be vastly superior to Windows 7 or 8.  (I also use 10.6.8 for "Save As" and "Bounce" in Apple Mail.)

     

    In the Windows world you can have ANY hardware configuration you want.  Even fully custom designed.  We often order our Windows machines from a small computer shop where they assemble them to our specifications.  Our work involves the creation of DVDs and Blu-Ray's. So we prefer to have these built into the computer.  By using the new Mac Cylinder, our desktop would be a jumbled mess of external boxes and cables.  The Windows solution is all in one neat box.

     

    As someone that has purchased over 100 Macintoshes, both personally and professionally I am disappointed with the new Mac Pro.

  • 151. Re: The new Mac Pro
    Marsdy Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Ultimately, the problem for Apple here is that TOO many people are saying that they don't like the new Mac Pro and many won't be buying it.

     

    It's the first time I've seen such a polarised reaction to a new pro Mac... They could have made a Mac Pro that pleased everybody, i.e. put the 4K graphics capability on a PCIe card. The end user would then have had a choice plus the option to upgrade in the future.

     

    Instead, Apple is attempting to redefine the high end workstation. But rather than come up with something REALLY useful, it has created a Mac miniPro which will need a pile of iClutter to be of any use to many pros for whom 4K support is a very expensive example of redundant over-specification.

  • 152. Re: The new Mac Pro
    The hatter Level 9 Level 9 (58,885 points)

    I already have clutter. Less now than when I had to have a shelf or two full of 15K and 10K SCSI drives, cables, multiple controllers.

     

    Heat and power seems to have dictated some of this. The idea of having more heavy watt consuming graphic cards and dual processor. And how poorly duals were for most scaling up.

     

    But we haven't seen hide or hair of anything except prototypes.

  • 153. Re: The new Mac Pro
    MacMiniPro Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    I'd take the 3.5GHz 6 core over the 2.7GHz 12 any day.

    Hopefully they offer it as an option.

  • 154. Re: The new Mac Pro
    Grant Bennet-Alder Level 8 Level 8 (49,285 points)

    Marsdy-

     

     

    They could have made a Mac Pro that pleased everybody, i.e. put the 4K graphics capability on a PCIe card.

     

    I think there is a serious question of whether the current "cheese grater" enclosure could COOL or POWER two of those hot GPU cards without fans that sounded like a jet taking off.

     

    --------

     

    No matter how many slots, some users will still have to plug in something else to get more.

     

    No matter how many internal drives, some users will still have to plug in something else to get more, and a lot of users are already doing that.

     

    ThunderBolt expansion is where they wanted to be going. I think it is lamentable that they did not include even ONE PCI slot and ONE drive beyond the Boot SSD, but having worked on Research and Development teams making these sorts of decisions in the past, I think the outcome is completely predictable.

     

    What WILL be required is add-on modules that can be readily purchased through the Apple store to complete your Mac Pro -- a modest-sized multiple drive enclosure and a modest-sized PCI enclosure and LONGER CABLES.

     

    Future Mac Pros now include a ThunderBolt expansion chassis and/or a drive chassis. Take it that way, or leave it.

     

    Calling it the Mac Mini Pro is amusing, but not especially helpful. The Mac Mini is a notebook-class machine without a built-in display that is not portable. It does not support extended memory or high-end graphics in any way. It includes a laptop-caliber processor and at most two laptop-caliber drives internally. (any more requires a ThunderBolt expansion chassis.)

  • 155. Re: The new Mac Pro
    MacMiniPro Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    Grant Bennet-Alder wrote:

    I think there is a serious question of whether the current "cheese grater" enclosure could COOL or POWER two of those hot GPU cards without fans that sounded like a jet taking off.

     

    They managed to fit a 800-1kw power supply into a 6.6x9.9" cylinder with a powerful CPU and two powerful GPUs.

     

    GPU heat in all prior MacPro/G5 models is managed by the on-card cooling solution. The fans you most often hear are for CPU cooling. Thats why they fit such a massive heatsink on the singe CPU model, to add heat capacity so the fans won't have to spool up as often. The current model is hanicapped by the fact there is no ducting around the CPU heatsink(s) to force air through them. Obviously, this wastes a LOT of airflow around them doing nothing.

     

    Personally, they got it right in the 06-08 models. The 09-12 heatsink design change was a huge step back.

  • 156. Re: The new Mac Pro
    FatMac>MacPro Level 4 Level 4 (2,390 points)

    MacMiniPro wrote:

     

    ...The current model is hanicapped by the fact there is no ducting around the CPU heatsink(s) to force air through them. Obviously, this wastes a LOT of airflow around them doing nothing...

    There's no need to force air through the CPU heat sink because there's a fan inside (aka BOOSTA) that's sucking air through it. And the intake and exhaust fans are also cooling the DIMMs, which would be ignored if their airflow was ducted around just the CPU heat sink. The dual CPU model  has a second such fan (aka BOOSTB).

  • 157. Re: The new Mac Pro
    MacMiniPro Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    FatMac\>MacPro wrote:


    There's no need to force air through the CPU heat sink because there's a fan inside (aka BOOSTA) that's sucking air through it.

     

    Good to know, thank you.

     

    EDIT: A more specific search with "boosta" found this and it clears that up very nicely for me!

    Thanks again.

     

    heatsink2.jpg

  • 158. Re: The new Mac Pro
    zachi Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    in fact this happened at the last keynote :

     

    a) apple discontinued the mac pro

    b) introduced a new concept of a computer with a performance of a low to mid end workstation

    c) named it mac pro again to counteract the outrage and to split the users opinions.

    that was actually a tremendously clever marketing move, i have to admit.

     

    fact is they split the user base into two groups :

     

    the disapointed pros

    which want to have not only a single cpu but also the option to be as fast as actual technology can be

    which want to extend internaly, because the do use more than 1-2 extensions

     

    example... you use your mac as professional render machine, which costs but also makes money.

    the new mac pro at its release time will be a relatively slow render machine, sorry.

    a pc workstation will be more expensive but twice as fast. plus extendable.

     

    the new target users

    professional users that do not need the compute power of a dual cpu system.

    people that dont really need a system with a specific performace, but just want a faster feel,

    private users that dont use a computer professionally, dont make money w it, and just like it/want it

     

    example... you lived since 2006 with a Mac Pro 1.1

    fact is.. an actual imac would be more than enough for you, much faster than your old pro

    but you think to need the new mac pro. because you feel better with it somehow.

    or you are a gfx artist for example. illustrator and photoshop will run blazing fast. you'll be happy.

     

     

    ... it will be interesting how this works out ...

    a lot of people who will buy the new pro are people who would have bought an imac before

    so.. they will spend more money... but financially for apple you have to subtract the loss of investments in imacs.

    on the other side pros who would have bought a real pro machine need to leave the apple universe...

    i wonder if this move is a plus for apple in the end... we'll see

  • 159. Re: The new Mac Pro
    Grant Bennet-Alder Level 8 Level 8 (49,285 points)

    zachi-

     

    Your points about expandability inside the chassis are well taken. It certainly is a pain to have to have more boxes for even the first increment in expandability.

     

     

    a pc workstation will be more expensive but twice as fast

    ...

    users that do not need the compute power of a dual cpu system

    You seem to be confusing multiple-chip solutions with superior compute power. Nothing could be further from the truth.

     

    Multiple chip solutions are an unbearable hack for getting more processing power. You throw away nearly a third of the bandwidth and processing power in synchronizing the two sets of memory, two sets of caches, and two sets of processor busses. It is a terrible solution, and the moment we can get all the processors on one chip, performance will improve tremendously.

     

     

    The 2009 through 2012 models with eight or more processors use a two chip solution. It is exceptionally expensive and you lose a third of the possible processing power just in coordinating the two chips.

     

    The 2013 cylinder will have up to 12 processors on one huge chip. NO inter-processor communication problems, no cache mis-matches, and no "that data resides in the OTHER processor's memory" problem. That is much faster.

     

    You have been given a solution that is superior (by at least a third). The two-chip solution is NOT better!  The measure of real compute power is the highest number of processors on the lowest number of chips.

     

    --------

     

    While today's iMacs can be configured to appear faster than many of today's Mac Pros, they do not have the ability to support large memories, and in particular do not support on-board memory error correction. Once you have spent weeks debugging a problem that turns out to be a memory problem, you will never choose to "work without a net" on a large memory without error correction, ever again. Memory error correction is worth its weight in gold.

  • 160. Re: The new Mac Pro
    Leslie Bell Level 2 Level 2 (340 points)

    zachi wrote:

     

    in fact this happened at the last keynote :

     

    .....

     

     

     

    After an upmteen number of repetitive posts, no matter the percieved or intended purpose or agenda, real or imagined, so VERY glad your OPINION has no effect whatsoever on reality.

  • 161. Re: The new Mac Pro
    MacMiniPro Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    Grant Bennet-Alder wrote:

     

    The 2013 cylinder will have up to 12 processors on one huge chip. NO inter-processor communication problems, no cache mis-matches, and no "that data resides in the OTHER processor's memory" problem. That is much faster.

     

    Except that its NOT faster than the current 3 year old 12 core Mac Pro.

    For processing times that means they would be paying $2500+ for a machine that is not substantially faster than their old computer unless they have software that can specifically take advantage of the two FirePro GPUs.

     

    Everyone was expecting a 16-24 core dual-cpu option to handle the ever-increasing workloads of HD media.

    Pros don't care about the 30% overhead, and they haven't since the "Two brains are better than one" G4 of 13 years ago.

    two-brains.jpg

    What they care about is absolute processing power, and the processing power of a 3 year old computer won't cut it anymore. They will simply move onto PC solutions that do provide that option.

     

    Most people, including myself, would be MUCH happier with a Dual CPU and one GPU configuration.

  • 162. Re: The new Mac Pro
    Grant Bennet-Alder Level 8 Level 8 (49,285 points)

    Except that its NOT faster than the current 3 year old 12 core Mac Pro.

     

    Excuse me? How did you decide that?

     

    .

  • 163. Re: The new Mac Pro
    MacMiniPro Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    I didn't, its factual data.

    23901 vs 21980. That is only an 8.5% improvment when comparing overall scores.

    Screen-Shot-2013-06-20-at-15.49.24.jpg

     

    http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench2/compare/2103799/2064275

     

    But looking at the specific scores, the old 12 core Mac Pro is actually faster in most CPU tasks. Its only because of memory and stream tasks that the score becomes higher. The fact the 2013 MacPro tested is Intel's highest speed 12 core CPU doesn't bode well for the new model's computational performance. Looks like it is focused mainly on data transfer speed and GPU performance.

     

    And that is only Apple's CPU options. OWC offers 3.33 and 3.46ghz 12-core CPU upgrades that will actually make the 3 year old computer FASTER in every CPU task than the top-end CPU of the 2013 Mac Pro. If you're willing to spend around $2300 for the upgrade.

    http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnkey/MacPro/2009_2010_Xeon_Processor/Apple_Mac _Pro_2010_2

     

    Combine that with the PCI-e SSD options available and dual GPU cards available for its two 16x slots and the only thing the 3 year old Mac Pro will be lacking over the 2013 Mac Pro is raw RAM speed.

     

    And it can still hold 4 storage drives and two optical drives inside of it, with an extra PCI-e slot open for an accessory card, all inside of a secure and lockable case.

  • 164. Re: The new Mac Pro
    zachi Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    yeahyeah...obviously most people here dont know a thing about high end workstations. amateurs fancying the new mac "pro" for extra $$ even if an imac would be absolutely sufficient for them. they will do some private work at home and feel very happy and so very pro with the ashtray.

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