Q: MacBook Pro 2011 17" hard freeze

Very, very disappointing experience with the Genius Bar in Annapolis, Maryland, regarding the issues with my 15" 2GHz MacBook Pro that has had issues since May with freezes when the AMD GPU fires up.  It cost $526.50 back in June for two back-to-back logic board replacements that didn't solve the problem.  Not long after the machine was back home, the freezes began anew.  I spent much of the summer troubleshooting further, wiping my drive and restoring everything in the machine to original specs, reading these threads religiously, trying out various fixes with safe mode and kexts and fans and everything else people suggested.  I gave in last weekened and took it back in for another repair before my 90-day parts warranty expires on September 10th.

The Genius Bar techs called today to let me know that their diagnostics found nothing wrong with the logic board or graphics card (same as last time, same as nearly all of us have experienced - the hardware tests do not catch the problems with these GPUs).  Because the problem is intermittent, and entirely depends on the engagement of the discrete GPU, they couldn't duplicate the problem.  They noticed the single dent in my computer, which is near the hard drive... and decided that it was physical damage to the hard drive that is causing the problem.  They "confirmed" this diagnosis by booting successfully without any graphics issues a couple of times off their own hard drive.  Because they are blaming the graphics issues on physical damage to my drive, they refused to replace the logic board again under the still-valid parts  warranty, and quoted me $541 or $841 for a flat-rate depot repair.  They wouldn't listen to anything I had to say about the kexts, about gfxCardStatus, about all of my troubleshooting and these threads and all of the evidence that these issues are with the GPU.

Given that this issue has already cost $526.50, the idea of giving them another several hundred dollars to ineffectively replace my hard drive and bottom case is absurd.  Given that the first two logic board replacements did nothing, I didn't have a lot of faith in getting a third one... but I have no faith whatsoever that a repair that doesn't even include replacing the GPU will resolve anything!  I am going to retrieve the laptop tomorrow from the store and escalate this directly with Apple, but I'm very stressed that I only have a few days left on my parts warranty. 

This has me in tears for the third time this summer, and this time I feel completely lost about how to resolve this.  When you own a $1800 laptop, spending over $1000 in ineffective additional repairs is an absolute insult.  I've owned over a dozen Macs over the years, and this is the first experience that has made me seriously question why I would ever buy anything else from Apple. 

I have the 15" 2011 Macbook Pro and I have had to have the logic board replaced 2 times because of graphic card issues.

Saramwrap,

The second time around they tried a variation of the drive trick on me.  (I had a 500GB SSD.)  They told me the problem was a non-stock drive and they would charge $950 to replace the drive!  I told the Apple store the drive booted my mac mini just fine.  The store said they would get it back, give me my drive, and send it back to depot repair without the drive.  The computer came back working, but the logic board failed a day and a half later. 

Third time, the Apple Store manager refunded the repair price of $310, because of my inconvenience.  (I didn't ask.)  He said they would send it to a higher level of repair.  When I got back, they had put a third replacement logic board in, replaced the keyboard, and the bottom case.  No charge.  It is still working, though I have gotten used to using my macbook air I bought with the refund.

The important thing is to go in with the computer failing.  Mine failed if I ran the photo booth and watched videos.  Good luck!

Karl

Karl,

It was failing when I brought it in - the tech who initially examined it couldn't get it to boot past a lovely blue striped screen and documented that in my growing repair file.  But when the techs were booting from their own drive, they didn't trigger the problem.  Since I wasn't back there with them, I don't know what all they tried besides a few boots.  Even after I reiterated all of the indications that this is a GPU issue, and pointed out that the computer had trouble booting from other drives as well, they are so solidly hung up on the idea of a tiny dent (from months before problems began or the initial two logic board replacements were done) causing the issue that they wouldn't entertain any other ideas.  I reminded them once again that they'd need to stress test the machine with graphics-intensive processes and programs (Photo Booth was a frequent problem for me, too) over a longer period of time to "prove" that their hard drive swap did anything - a few quick boots is weak evidence when these issues are sporadic and sometimes difficult to cause quickly on demand.  I've had multiple days with no issues, followed by multiple days where I never got a boot outside of Safe Mode. 

I really don't know what else to do.  This was not a flat-rate depot repair, so the only thing my soon-to-end 90-day repair warranty covers is yet another logic board.  I discussed these issues at length with a tech, emphasizing that Apple has already received $526.50 to repair these problems and has not resolved them.  While she was sympathetic, she said there was nothing she could do - they consider this to be a separate issue from the earlier logic board replacements.  Two different parts, two different repairs, two different costs totalling $1000+ of out-of-pocket expense. 

I have sent Tim Cook another email that especially calls attention to the fact that they are not honoring the warranty that came with that original $526.50 payment to resolve my graphics issues.  Given that my 90 days are up on Tuesday, I'll be calling Customer Relations on Monday if I've heard nothing back. 

In addition, besides my ongoing data collection from affected 2011 MBP users (114 entries and counting, thank you), I have been logging the three main threads about this issue to document exactly how many individual users/laptops these thousands of posts represent.  I am hoping to compile these various bits of data into talking points about the scope of these problems that we can use when we communicate with Apple as well as Apple advocates, journalists. etc.

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Hi Saramwrap,

Sounds like they are shafting you.  Mine had a dent that I put in it after it started failing.  I didn't get any trouble for that.  That was the reason they replaced the bottom case on the third try after refunding my repair price. 

I was constantly taking my drive out and running a diskutility fix drive and permissions because it kept getting corrupted.  Maybe that is what they are talking about regarding the drive.  Hardly fair!

I would recommend going to a different Apple Store with different people.  I think it is clear the one you visited has an unhelpful culture.  I used two Apple Stores: in North County San Diego and Manhattan.  I did not receive any problems.  Deal with a different set of geniuses with a differnt boss.  Don't fight, go to a store with a better culture.

I do have a degree in electrical engineering.  I went in knowing I wasn't able to fix it for months (I wasn't going to reflow or reball), and only they would be able to fix it.  I just went in, told them I had gone through, and they couldn't boot it.  I made sure it was failing before I went in though.  I didn't complain, just told and showed them what wasn't working.  I let them define the solution.

The drive trick actually came from the depot, and the Manhattan store offered to take out the drive and try again.  (I had told them $950 sounded like the price of a logic board rather than the price of a drive.).  The store actually called me immediately after I read their email.  So I think they knew it was a messed up response. 

Karl

This is turning into a nightmare. I replaced the logic board on April. A month ago

(meaning:out of the 3-month guarantee), the computer started to have the known issues.

I decided to use the intel GPU as much as posible, and the AMD when needed

(I'm a video editor and film/video maker).

A week ago the computer failed repeatedly to boot, presenting distorted graphics

after the aplle logo screen. It had the same behavior 2 times in front of the apple

technician (I live in Greece, so no Apple store here, but an authorized service provider),

who agreed that the problem is, again, the AMD GPU.

Yesterday, they called me back, proposing a Hard Drive replacement!!!

I insisted that the problem is the GPU, and mentioned this thread.

I have no complains for the service providers, they have been very helpful

many times, but I won't pay for something that I have already tried on my own,

without any results.

This is an almost 3000 euro computer (17'', 2.3GHz, matte screen), which is crucial for my work,

and I am afraid that I am forced to buy a new one, because even if they aknowledge the problem,

and replace the logic board, according to the experience of all you in this thread, I cannot be sure

of having a working computer.

This is a total disaster for me, since the financial situation here in Greece is very difficult,

and to the costs of a new macbook pro, I would have to add 300-400 euros for adapters

( I use peripherals based on the express card slot, which isn't available on the new macbook pro's).

I really hope for an Apple response on the GPU issues, but I cannot wait for very long. I am really

thinking for the hackintosh option, although I always found it a very risky option for a professional,

even for a "struggling to survive" freelancer/artist, like me...

tzara,

You could try to get your local EU Consumer Centre involved, http://www.synigoroskatanaloti.gr/index_ecc_en.html

They should be able to help you find out whether or not you've still covered by guarantee under EU laws. Things like this can get fuzzy, especially when they have already done repairs during the guarantee period which didn't help...

Other than that, in Sweden there's a consumer rights agency paid for by the govenrment whose purpose is to give legal advice to citizens when they are having a dispute with a company. They are also able to speak directly to companies to issue official "reccomended actions", which most legitimate business choose to follow to avoid getting bad press. There might be something similar in Greece?

Reading all of the crazy things that people have been told at the Genius Bar since the beginning of this thread makes me  think they're all struggling to diagnose and treat a problem that doesn't show up as a straightforward error on their diagnostic testing, doesn't always present itself visually upon demand, and has also flabbergasted hundreds of us for over two years.  Part of the flawed logic that apparently went into the diagnosis that I received was that if two previous logic board replacements hadn't fixed the problem, then it couldn't be a problem with the logic board. 

I am escalating this directly with Apple HQ because their customer relations reps are empowered to make much higher-level decisions - grant discounted or free repairs, or issue refunds for service done a few months (or even years) back.  With the 90-day warranty expiring in 4 days, I really don't have time to start anew with another Genius Bar (especially given that this one took 5.5 days to come back with that ill-reasoned "diagnosis"). 

I wish I could make it fail on demand reliably.  I spent a lot of time this summer trying to make my laptop crash over and over so I could figure out a foolproof trigger... but nothing worked 100% of the time.  Photo Booth was pretty good at causing crashes, but sometimes it worked without any issues and I know the Geniuses would have limited patience watching me take endless selfies until something happened.  I never found a single quick, reproducible, consistent action that would trigger an epic freeze/crash so I could show them on demand.  I also wanted it to happen using only Apple-provided software on my freshly restored system, so they couldn't tell me it was being caused by third-party software that I'd installed.

walkietokyo,

thank you, I will definetely try that, and the consumer rights agency,

after their final response.

In fact, the first logic board replacement was covered under the  EU law,

but the second one will not, or maybe I should check that, as you propose.

But they have to admit that the problem IS the logic board first...

Here's my story:

Late July, first crash, same symptoms as everyone else.

Went to Apple Store, here's the diagnosis transcription from the "genius".

Description du problème/diagnostic

Issue: Customer states he uses external display and sometimes gets no video and must force shutdown. Brought article TS4088 to show known issue. Also provided picture of distorted blue screen, which occurred once.

Now Mac will not startup unless Safe Boot is used, most often getting stuck on blank light gray screen.

Steps to Reproduce: Tried normal boot, took very long, then got stuck at blue screen (just before loginwindow) >> issue was reproduced.

Ran Mac Resource Inspector (MRI) >> all passed, 4 times in a row, but Video System Test (VST) still doesn't show up, despite operating system (OS) being up-to-date. Customer did say however that he was not able to complete the installation of "MacBook Pro Video Update 1.0 (Snow Leopard)" – which may be preventing VST from appearing in APple Service Toolkit (AST).

Tried to NetBoot into known-good 10.7.5 triage volume, since customer says he can reproduce issue >> got stuck on blank light gray screen.

Successfully booted into OS in Safe Mode >> customer says sound drivers are not loaded, so he can't reproduce issue as usual in Ableton Live software.

Proposed Resolution: Even though not Mid-2010 model, may possibly be eligible for Repair Extension Program (REP).

Once all software updates installed, try to run VST, escalate to TSPS if needed – as per GSX article RS80.

Customer has not authorized the large repair fee yet, I am simply checking in to run and hopefully fail VST first.

Since MLB part is out of stock, quoted 3-5 business days to receive it, and up to 5-7 days maximum to complete repair.

Customer has backup and agreed to proceed.

Informed customer 0 days of warranty remaining, but informed customer that all replacement parts come with 90-day warranty.

Cosmetic Condition: Looks mint, only slight line on plastic covering display hinge.

No evidence of accidental damage was seen.

After this, Logic Board replacement was the verdict ( 622$). I didn't accept it.

Then, I stumbled upon this very thread and the multiple others popping out around here. Also filled Google's survey created by one of you.

After gathering all the info I could, I sent an email to Tim Cook. Really long email, with links to this thread and every single bit of info I could find. Got a reply, and escalated to a Senior Advisor that in turn took the issue to Apple's engineers.

They sent a small program for data collection on my computer. Ran it, and waited for feedback.

Two day later, answer was "try to remove all third party RAM, and boot with original hardware that came with the computer". Here's the thing, I DON'T have any third party RAM on my computer!!!!! Makes me wonder what kind of tests they did...Replied them the same thing, and in turn the feedback was "Sorry, we don't have enough complaints to start a recall. Have a nice day".

Now, i'm seriously considering sending them a formal notice, under Canada's consumer protection act, that talks about "reasonable length of time for goods". Meaning, a 2500$ computer that fails after 2 years is NOT a reasonable length of working condition. Not sure if i'm willing to put the time, energy and ressources on a legal process, but this isn't what I expected from Apple.

What Apple is doing is just plain wrong. And I won't say anything else.

Puresoundguitar - Ugh, that is ridiculous.  Apple is lauded for their hardware and customer service, and the experiences documented in this thread (mine and others) give me pause about both of those. 

I understand that it takes some critical mass of documented affected machines to prompt a repair program, which is why people here has been pushing everyone to fill out the Apple feedback form.  But even a repair program can be a mixed blessing - if you look at the recent 2011 iMac GPU recall, they were very explicit about which models were covered and there were still plenty of users with models that suffer from the same issues and yet didn't qualify.  So I worry that we could see the same thing even in the best-case scenario of a repair program - what if they only recall one of the two affected chips, or only certain screen sizes, or only some models out of the affected one?  It really freaks me out, after I was so excited about the iMac announcement and then saw comments from a bunch of forlorn 2011 iMac users who won't be getting any resolution from that program. 

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It took about two days to receive a phone call from Apple. I can share my case number (privately), if you want to use it as a reference.

I don't see this coming to a happy end. If I repair my Macbook, i'm gonna flip it as soon as I can and go the PC route. After all, it's not only Apple that sells professional computers.

saramwrap > for me this "works" all the time:

- switch to AMD gpu with gfxCardStatus

- open photo booth

but if not sufficient, just open photo booth + skype (this is a good one ;-)), and why not other grafic intensive softwares like photoshop / fcp etc

you'll have your "special effects" back...

Saramwrap,

Well there is one other thing it could be.  Since Apple replaced my logic board for a third time, the keyboard, and case, I figured they had replaced the whole computer except for the screen and my disk.  There was one other thing they didn't replace, the power supply!  They refused it when I offered it to them.

I didn't want another fried logic board and repair cycle.  So when I picked up my laptop, I bought a new 85w power supply and decided never to try the old one.  For me, I had to do something different for a different result.  As long as we were throwing parts at the problem, I figured it was dumb not to change the power supply!  It was worth the $85 risk not to go through a 4th repair cycle.

The laptop is still working with the new power supply.  Never tried the old one.  I lent it to someone who watches lots of YouTube videos.

The power adaptor has a 1 and a half star rating!  So it looks easy to have bad luck with the power supply.  One reviewer mentions changing logic boards.

http://store.apple.com/us/reviews/MC556LL/B/apple-85w-magsafe-power-adapter-for- 15-and-17-inch-macbook-pro

It is hard for me to believe Apple would over look the possibility of power supplies harming a logic board and would prefer to replace logic boards.  It is logically possible the problem could be the power supply.  I just don't have enough evidence to say so.  I figured replacement would be the safest and faster than diagnostics.  (The diagnostic test the genius ran said the power supply was OK.)  I haven't tried to compare them with a volt meter.  A volt meter is basically an open circuit test and wouldn't be a load test.

Karl

Karl, that's very interesting!  We run our pool of Macs (3 MacBook Pros and an old MacBook) on three different 85W power supplies that just stay at various locations (work, home, and in my backpack).  I've never noticed problems that could be obviously linked to one power supply over another, but I've also never paid specific attention to that!  MagSafe power adapters definitely can have issues - I've had multiple  since 2006 that have broken, melted, or suddenly stopped working.  For a long time (like during the PowerBook era), non-Apple power supplies were fairly uniformly considered to be more reliable and functional than the Apple-produced ones.  I'm really glad to hear that you haven't had any issues since replacing that.  If you take a multimeter to it, I'd be very interested in the results. 

As an update on my situation, I went to pick up my laptop from the Genius Bar and had made an appointment so I could make sure I had a chance to talk to them at length about their testing and diagnosis.  I got passed around between three different employees, and the store was chaos, which made it very difficult to have a coherent and rational conversation about the issues I've had and the reasons I have doubts about their diagnosis.  I finally ended up speaking directly with the tech who did nearly all of the diagnostics and triage, which meant that he was very knowledgeable about the things that had been done... but he also clearly took it  personally that I disagreed with him!  We went around in circles about hard drives, graphics cards, and warranties.  I really thought I was getting nowhere, but I persisted and just continued through my talking points.

In the end, after the main tech went in the back for a little while to "figure out other options," he returned and extended an offer to provide a depot repair at reduced cost in light of the previous charges to (unsuccessfully) address the same problem.  This is "something they never do" and "something they'd never do again," but my laptop will be mailed off to the depot and the cost will be covered by Apple up to $610 (which I believe is the Tier 2 depot rate with taxes).  If the depot comes back and quotes a higher tier because of the physical condition of the machine (which is pretty much perfect besides that single dent, so hopefully that does not happen), that difference will be my responsibility.  I think that is a fairly reasonable compromise, and in the end, I'll have another 90-day warranty - and this time it'll be on the whole machine, not just on the logic board itself.

Just a question for those who have gotten depot repair - do you get an itemized list at the end of what parts they replaced?