1 2 Previous Next 26 Replies Latest reply: Jan 13, 2014 7:20 PM by remoteONE Go to original post
  • 15. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    Shootist007 Level 6 Level 6 (16,640 points)

    WalterWeight wrote:

     

    Shootist007 wrote:

     

     

    I have not had any viruses or trojans or whatever on any of my PCs for over a decade and I haven't used any anti virus software for over 3 years.

     

    Classic!

     

    How do you know you didn't have a virus if you didn't have any anti virus software?

    Simple my systems run fine. I watch my router logs and there is no unintended activity. There are no strange things going on on my systems. All programs run as they should. No pop ups in browsers.

     

    What more info do you need.

     

    AFAIK you don't need an AV program to know your system has been infected. It becomes self evident by the way it works or doesn't work.

     

    Is that good enough for you.

     

    Classic Paranoia.

  • 16. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    WalterWeight Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Shootist007 wrote:

     

    Is that good enough for you.

     

    It's your system, so it's more than good enough for me. If you know what you're doing (and it sounds like you do), then fair enough. But the number of times I hear that claim in my line of work, only to see the user with egg on their face at a later date.

     

    Personally, even with decades of experience behind me in this line of work, I'd not take the risk.

  • 17. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    Shootist007 Level 6 Level 6 (16,640 points)

    So do I and there has never been a time when I have cleaned a system that the USER did not do something to get the virus.

    They do not just show up. They do not just get downloaded from the net unless something has let them through to the computer. Namely the User. By clicking on a link in an email or doing something they may should have not done on some less then honest website.

  • 18. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    WalterWeight Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Not counting worms that get in via vendor unpatched exploits (Nimda being the one I have the "fondest" recollaction of), then yes, but you could argue a worm is a user's fault, as computers don't turn themselves on.

  • 19. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    Shootist007 Level 6 Level 6 (16,640 points)

    Whatever. I don't have any and haven't.

     

    AV is just a waist of money and resources. YMMV.

     

    Given the fact that I may some time in the future not with standing. If and when I'll re-image that system.

     

    Have a great day.

  • 20. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    remoteONE Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    And what's the advantage of installing Windows without Boot Camp, aside from not having an easy access to updated Apple drivers?

     

    Well thats a very good question and my answer is.
    NOTE: Ive used Mac OSX now for about 14 hours a day, 6 days a week for about 5 years, so Ive had some experience....
    1. MBP has great hardware.
    2. OSX is, IMHO oversimplified, and has very limited functionally.

    - OSX is not very extensable.
    - Software vendors think that Mac users are simpletons, so they tend omit many of the powerful features that the Windows versions have, when designing the Mac versions.
    - FINDER is a POS. So much so that one needs to purchase more than one third party file-manager app just to manage files productively. And even then the enhanced functions are still not available in the Open/Save windows.

    - Virtual machines are ok, but you still dont get access to all the power of the hardware, To do so youll need to run windows natively.

    - Macs wont write to NTFS (THE most common File System on the planet) without needing to again purchase 3rd party apps.

    3. Not all Windows programs have Mac versions/equivilents, and those that do are, as said above, not worth worring about.

    4. Disk Utility is  what you might call "Mac Only".

     

    So what all that means that you are going to want to run windows natively and although youve got great hardware, you might never need to boot into OSX again ... depending on what you use it for.

     

    Now If your like me, you like to have separate Partitions for Windows and your Data. This makes data Security amongst other things much easier .

    5. Partition Limitations.

    - You can have ONLY 4 patitions on a HDD.

    - And windows only recognises ONE Extended Partition.

    - Part 1 = Boot partition - EFI (+ Refind if using it.)

    - Part 2 = OSX , required for normal Bootcamp, that might take up 50GB-120GB depending on your desires.

    Thats wasted space if you never boot into OSX in practice.

    OSX is seen by Windows as an Extened partition, so windows wont see your Extended partition if OSX is there.

    Part 3 = Data , say NTFS.

    Part 4 = OSX recovery partition. (Dont really need it)

     

    So the answer is:
    Install Windows 7 without BC because:

    a: You can have your DATA etc in an Extended Partition which I think you may then be able to also  install the 2 partitions for Linux if need be.
    b: No need for the 2 OSX partitions taking up valuable SSD space.
    c: Dont need top buy a new Lappy when you discover, after much agony, that OSX is a not up to the task(s) and you want to move forward running windows only.

     

    Gotta love the beautiful backlit keyboards, fantastic screen and Magnetic power adapter etc though!

     

    Without prejudice...

  • 21. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    Ciotti Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)

    You can use Parallels or VirtualBox (software opensource)!

  • 22. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    remoteONE Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    You can use Parallels or VirtualBox (software opensource)!

    Umm, I think you're a little off-topic there Ciotti...

    Unless Im mistaken, I interpreted the title of this topic to mean "Install windows 7 without bootcamp (because I dont want to install OSX)".

     

    Since, if you DO have OSX installed, then theres just no point NOT installing BOOTCAMP to also run windows7 and

    If you DONT have OSX installed then you CANT use any Virtual Machine programs so are bviously installyng Win7 natively..

  • 23. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    Daphoid Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    1. MBP has great hardware.

     

    True.

     

    2. OSX is, IMHO oversimplified, and has very limited functionally.

     

    I disagree. More features does not neccessarily make it better.

     

    - OSX is not very extensable.

    In what way? You can write applescripts to add whatever functionality to the services menu of every application. That's user accessible out of the box and does not require hacking something in like in a WIndows application (addiing things to context menus). I'm not sure what other issues you're having. You can't customize the themes like a 14 year old browsing deviant art, but that's not a bad thing.

     

    - Software vendors think that Mac users are simpletons, so they tend omit many of the powerful features that the Windows versions have, when designing the Mac versions.

    This isn't a complaint against Applee or OS X at all, but rather third party developers. And while I have seen examples of it (AutoCAD), I've definitely seen software thats better designed on the Mac then on Windows (1Password for example)

     

    - FINDER is a POS. So much so that one needs to purchase more than one third party file-manager app just to manage files productively. And even then the enhanced functions are still not available in the Open/Save windows.

    This is highly subjective and matter of opinion. I've tried PathFinder and TotalFinder, and stuck with none of them. I'm fast with Finder now that I know how it works; which is different then Explorer.

     

    - Virtual machines are ok, but you still dont get access to all the power of the hardware, To do so youll need to run windows natively.

    True a few years ago, but with modern chipsets from Intel allowing direct hardware access to VMWare Fusion or Parallels, no longer the case.

     

    - Macs wont write to NTFS (THE most common File System on the planet) without needing to again purchase 3rd party apps.

    Again, this is not an Apple or OS X limitation. NTFS is owned by Microsoft and while they've released the read ability to the open source community, the ability to write is still owned and privately held by them.

     

    3. Not all Windows programs have Mac versions/equivilents, and those that do are, as said above, not worth worring about.

    Again, this isn't an Apple or OS X fault but rather a third party or your own personal issue. I can do everything I personally need to do for work and home on a Mac with a few minor exceptions; that I easily run in a remotely hosted VM. "Not worth worrying about" is a laugh. You're clearly speaking from using it in an office that is most likely all Windows and thus doesnt' use software that caters to OS X users.

     

    4. Disk Utility is  what you might call "Mac Only".

    And your point? Disk Management is Windows only. GParted is LiveCD only?

     

    The only reasons I can see for running Windows on Apple hardware without Boot Camp that don't fall into personal opinions about OS X or its Apps are:

    1. 100% access to all available storage inside the machine

     

    - D

  • 24. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    remoteONE Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I read your post carfully and concluded that we must have a bit of mac-fan-boy on our hands here.

    Ive used OSX for more than 4 years, on 2 macbooks, working up 8-18 hours 7 days a week.

    So Im not just shooting off athe mouth here.

    More features does not neccessarily More features does not neccessarily make it better..

    I know what you mean, but in the case of OSX's Finder and and a number of other things, I gotta shout out loud and clear .....  Oh ..YES it does !

    I've definitely seen software thats better designed on the Mac then on Windows (1Password for example)

    Yeah, sure, so have I, but my words "tend omit many of the powerful features that the Windows versions have" is a generalization. the word "tend" is the key here. Overall, having now ditched OSX after gaining much experience at it, Im able to be much more productive running windows 7 on the Macbook.

    Dont get me wrong tho. it takes about 4-7 days to set up a windows machine properly and get rid of all the BS in it, and Im very well aware that windose tends to be musch less stable. It does not matter to me whos fault, OSX of the sofware vendors, it is, Im just reporting my experience. If I was to lay blame, Id say vendors are providing the masses with what they think they want, so its the general consumer that is driving this oversimplification trend,...IMHO.

    I've tried PathFinder and TotalFinder, and stuck with none of them

    Yep, so have I... What does that say about OSX's Finder then, if users need to purchase a Filemanager app to allow them to be productive... its deserving of my critisism, Pathfinder was riddled with bugs so badly I gave up on it. ExtraFinder is a great app to add to Finder... In summary ..FINDER is a steaming POS...

    NTFS is owned by Microsoft and while they've released the read ability to the open source community

    Thats interesting...  The ability to write to NTFS is included with most flavours of Open Source and free Linux distro'. So if such licesing does exist, Im sure Apple is in a better financial position than Linux developers are to purchase licences. OSX/UNIX has the ability already built in, its just that Apple dont impliment it.... I rather think its more of a political posturing issue than a technical one.

    "Not worth worrying about" is a laugh. You're clearly speaking from using it in an office that is most likely all Windows ..

    Yes its a laugh alright.. at a sad, sick joke...


    In our SOHO we use/develop/mod PHP/smarty/html JS Web softtware, manage several online stores, manage our own WAMP server, create extensive Excel spreadsheets, Incorrect, When I wrote that OP, I was in the process of changing my SOHO from a all OSX base, with running windows in VMware VMs... to what we have now, which is all Windows7 ... in general.. much happier now.. Its obvious that we dont quite fit Apple and their third part vendors demograffic.

    ... and thus doesnt' use software that caters to OS X users.

    What does that even mean?

    The only reasons I can see for running Windows on Apple hardware without Boot Camp that don't fall into personal opinions about OS X or its Apps are:

    1. 100% access to all available storage inside the machine

    Hmm, this last one made me wonder why I bothered replying,

    Its been a while now, but..... from memory::

    - Ability to manage files/folders within an applications Open or Save widows.

    - Contextual menues for "Select All" and "Cut"    I know Xtrafinder fixes some of this. but again, needing to purchase app to do things that I believe shoul be native.

    - Could never get iPhone to open as a folder in finder to quickily access the photos , edit and move on.

    - OSX requires minimum of 2 patitions (3 if you count the recovert part'n), the HFS+ OSX partition is seen by windows as a Extended partion by Windows. I wont go into the problems THAT causes.here ..!

    - Excel for OSX is so lacking in power andso slow, Numbers is too simple and not powerfull enough. So need to run Office for windows.

    - At Time of writing the OP  VM fusion could not display the VM OS in multiple screen mode.. not sure if thats changed...

    - Ive yet to find after many many searches and tests of mac software, a equivilent for Edit Plus 3 text editer.

    - And as you say, the ability to write to NTFS patitions...duh!

     

    Well thats probably about only 10% of the reasons I found to no longer bother using OSX and go back to Windows.

    As I said, Im no windows fan-boy either and find windows 7 to be  a bit slower to boot and shutdown and less stable than OSX ML, but overall, going back to windows from OSX has been a more productive experience.

     

    Message was edited by: remoteONE

    Wow there's now an Edit Button!  Fantastic work!

  • 25. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    Daphoid Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    A Mac fanboy? Hardly. I've been OS X off and on for years, but as my primary OS only since 2009 (5 years). Whereas I've been using Windows for over 20 years..

     

    That aside, you missed the whole point of my post. Everything you countered is *personal opinion*. I was not disputing that some people don't find Finder to be adequate for their needs. Or that some people have issues with Mac specific software whilst the WIndows counterpart works fine

     

    However *none* of that has any bearing on why a user should run Windows only on a Apple laptop outside of Boot Camp. The question is purely a technical one, not a opinion piece.

     

    For all these supposed problems you claim exist while using OS X, all the users at my work who use OS X and Office for Mac must be broken in some way. Yes some of my users find MS Office for Mac limitating and run Office for Windows in a virtual machine. But that number is minimal (2 out of 50 users). I personally use Office for Mac every day with no issues *for my workflow*. That includes Excel. But I must be wrong according to your logic.

     

    Assume no software is required outside of the base OS, that the user does everything in say Google Docs and only requires an OS and a web browser and absolutely nothing else.


    I'm sure that could be done fine on any operating system. Be it Windows, OS X , or Linux.

     

    And your partition argument baffles me? OS X has multiple partitions, as does Windows (2 by default as of Windows Vista I believe, though the hidden 100MB partition isn't visible). If it's a capacity complaint, then see my previous post in which I mentioned that not installing Windows inside Boot Camp would indeed give you the entire disk to work with, as I previously stated.

     

    - D

  • 26. Re: Install windows 7 without bootcamp
    remoteONE Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    *personal opinion*

    Dam right it is, and clearly that of others, hence the desire, and request for help run Windows without Bootcamp, which really means "Windows without OSX".

    Are you not interested in the *personal opinion* of others, especially those with extensive experience?  Not sure why you even go down that dead-end trail....

    However *none* of that has any bearing on why a user should run Windows only on a Apple laptop outside of Boot Camp

    Oh yes it has quite a lot of bearing on it. If you dont use OSX, whats the point of having it on your Mac?

    However, I seem to taken this discussion off topic. So this will be my last reply.

    I personally use Office for Mac every day with no issues *for my workflow*. That includes Excel. But I must be wrong according to your logic.

    Didnt say you wer wrong, did I? But MS excel for Mac does not come with the (all-important-for me) "Analysis Toolpacks" that is available with the windows version. I'm also certain that Im not the only user of Excel that needs this. If you personally dont need it, thats great, but you might need to be a little more open minded.

    And your partition argument baffles me?

    Maybe refer to my explanation "5. Partition Limitations." in my original post.

    To add, Windows 7 can run from one single partition leaving the flexibility to have an exteded partition if you want to take things to the dual-boot Linux level. Or just a second part'n for Data.

    You can only have 4 patitions on a drive.

     

    So maybe we need to get back on-topic here. I think this could be considered more of a  HOW? rather than a WHY? question.

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