chrstene96

Q: Need recommendation for bootable External HD for CCC

Hi !  I recently came to the forums to get info on how to effectively back up my mid-2010 MBP 500 Gb because according to Disk Utility I need to reformat my HD  

I am currently only using Time Capsule to back up with Time Machine.  I had initially decided to drag my iPhoto library, itunes, and movies (along with some other user files) to a new Seagate 500 gb GoFlex portable External HD that I had.  But since I've done that, I've also done more browsing on the boards here and learned that I probably should be making a bootable clone of my HD (using Carbon Copy Cloner).  That sounds like a logical idea, and Im embarassed  I didn't know about it sooner.  So I plan to purchase the CCC immediately and do this before it's too late.  On their website they specifically say NOT to use Western Digital drives because some of them are not bootable.  I also saw some comments that the Seagates "go to sleep" and probably should be avoided.  I'm not sure how up-to-date those forums are so I am coming here for some recommendations/suggestions. 

 

Before seeing those comments I had seen a few in the local stores here I was considering (WD passport, SeaGate backup plus, Toshibo Canvio Connect)...but now I'm confused. 

 

Any suggestions for an External HD that I can use?  (also, I was thinking 1 TB was a decent size to get)?

 

Thanks so much for your help ! 

 

Christine

MacBook Pro, OS X Mavericks (10.9)

Posted on Nov 13, 2013 5:49 PM

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Q: Need recommendation for bootable External HD for CCC

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  • by PlotinusVeritas,

    PlotinusVeritas PlotinusVeritas Nov 14, 2013 6:55 PM in response to chrstene96
    Level 6 (14,806 points)
    Nov 14, 2013 6:55 PM in response to chrstene96

    chrstene96

    How would I go about archiving them onto a separate external hard drive?  Is that what I did previously when I dragged and dropped the "iphoto library" icon onto the EHD?  If not, what would I do to ensure my actual pictures are safe?  Any novice instructions you can share with me?

     

    I have almost half a terabyte of just photos, most of which I took (wallpaper pics dont count, lol).

     

     

    There have been long and endless debates about how Iphoto 'hijacks' your picture collection into its database. See here:

    https://discussions.apple.com/message/22178388#22178388

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3062728?tstart=0

     

    If you want to use Iphoto, an ideal way is to offload the pics from your camera directly to folders on an external HD, name and date them for quick reference,....say "2013 pics of the kids at the beach"..."pics of spot and fluffy 2012" etc.

     

    After you have the pics on an external HD, then import them to Iphoto if you need/ want to.

     

    Genuine safety (best) is 2 identical HD (or more as space requires),.. archival DVD burns on century DVD blanks rated for 100 years (taiyo yuden made by JVC),  $40 per 100 pack.

     

    keep those HD in the safe, or get a firebox at walmart for $30 (very cheap fire protection), and lastly as final protection (if you find it needed as final protection) a private website ($100 a year unlimited storage, godaddy.com etc.) an online archive.

     

    Thats triple platform redundancy.

     

    Myself and many others refuse to ever use Iphoto due to how it squirrels away your photos in its database.

    I love Apple to the ends.....own basically everything they make, and a shareholder, but I find Iphoto a tad loathsome.

  • by R C-R,

    R C-R R C-R Nov 14, 2013 7:20 PM in response to PlotinusVeritas
    Level 6 (17,623 points)
    Nov 14, 2013 7:20 PM in response to PlotinusVeritas

    PlotinusVeritas wrote:

    Etre is claiming same.

    No, he is not. From the beginning, he was simply pointing out that your often repeated statement that (and I quote) "You cant boot from time machine" statement is & has been technically inaccurate for at least a year & is clearly misleading in a topic about OS 10.9 Mavericks. It is true that you can only boot into its copy of Recovery HD, but nobody is disputing that. The objections are to your sloppy use of the terminology & overly broad generalizations, which do nothing but obscure the distinctions others are trying to make.

    I know, Ive looked thru some tmbackupdp folders several times.   however if you think that is "handy" or very useful (which I dont think you do), you know better.

    What I think is you have no experience actually using Time Machine to recover a deleted file or you would know better than to make such a silly statement. The alternatives you have been mentioning are time consuming, may require sorting through a multitude of windows, & extra steps just to create the backups in the first place.

    Yes, I know TM supports multiple HD,.....however no professional on EARTH (I have heard of a few, sadly that are doing this in their personal bussiness) is storing his/her vital files on a giant daisy chain of TM drives!

    Here again you show your lack of familiarity with TM & a propensity to ignore the distinctions others are making. TM doesn't make a "daily chain" of backups; its multiple drive support makes independent, redundant backups on different drives.

     

    And as for what "professionals" do, please remember that this conversation includes input from many of them. They can speak for themselves. It is presumptuous of you to try to do that for them, & more than a little ludicrous to disagree with what they say. Speak for yourself about your own experiences & people will listen to what you have to say. Speak for others & they probably won't.

    As it turns out one of the huge positive benefits of a clone is that people were seeing faster HD speeds; with APPS booting up from the clone than they had seen with the internal HD.

    Nonsense. Nothing is faster than the internal bus, not even Thunderbolt. And with modern drives with intelligent caching & large buffers, it takes enormous amounts of file fragmentation to create even barely noticeable decreases in I/O performance. Unless you are trying to edit multiple high resolution video streams in realtime or do similar time-critical work, defragging the startup drive is a waste of time better spent on something more productive.


    Again, please stick to what you know from your own personal experience, & consider what others are telling you about theirs. We are not all going to agree about the best backup solution, nor should we. Individual needs are different so the only way we are going to get anywhere is to avoid all the oversimplifications & irrelevant generalizations topics like this one so often devolve into.

  • by PlotinusVeritas,

    PlotinusVeritas PlotinusVeritas Nov 14, 2013 7:54 PM in response to R C-R
    Level 6 (14,806 points)
    Nov 14, 2013 7:54 PM in response to R C-R

    The alternatives you have been mentioning are time consuming, may require sorting through a multitude of windows, & extra steps just to create the backups in the first place.

     

    What "time consuming" option is that?  I have say 100 PDF files created in the past 2 days in a folder marked "11-10-2013 PDF".

          Every day I drag that folder to an external HD. When I backup that folder full of PDF (or anything for that matter), it takes one swiping gesture to the external HD on the desktop. Is that the "hard/ complicated" part you refer to?

    --Do you have any experience actually using anything other than TM?   You make blanket statements about extremely easy things as being "hard, complex, convoluted" when they arent at all.

     

    R C-R Texas, USA 

    multitude of windows, & extra steps

     

    Completely untrue, I drag active files containing data to a connected HD......no windows and only 1 step.

     

    at chosen intervals, I copy that full or filling HD to another HD for data redundancy.........no windows and only 1 step.

     

     

    R C-R Texas, USA 

    "professionals" do, please remember that this conversation includes input from many of them. They can speak for themselves. It is presumptuous of you to try to do that for them

     

    I dont know any professional data archivists on this board,....I speak about professional books written on data archiving and what large multinational corporations or large businesses do. (however some of them are still using 3M tape backups for data for several reasons......but consumers cant afford such things).

     

     

    R C-R Texas, USA 

    Nonsense. Nothing is faster than the internal bus, not even Thunderbolt.

     

    This is a statement you completely didnt understand.....I was speaking of a HD clone, when installed, will boot FASTER than the good working original in most cases. This is proven fact, due to how CCC and SuperDuper defrag in the clone process. You can google this fact if you deny it, ....however you didnt understand what I was saying at all. The code author of SuperDuper himself has a PDF about this "discovery" and his investigation into it as well on his site.

     

    I wasnt attempting nor alluding to anything being faster than an internal vs. external bus.

     

     

    "You cant boot from time machine" statement is & has been technically inaccurate for at least a year & is clearly misleading in a topic about OS 10.9 Mavericks. It is true that you can only boot into its copy of Recovery HD

     

    I was very clear on it, ..however it is possible Etre got connotation and denotation of the word "BOOT" confused.

     

    I stated you cannot "boot to desktop from a TM". Fact.

     

    A: recovery (from TM to a corrupted HD)

    B: boot-to-Recovery (for a TM backup to begin to write to a newly installed HD)

    C: FULL-Boot from a HD clone

     

    Only C is a genuine "boot"

     

    Possibly it should be said that you "can ENTER into recovery via time machine", rather than use the word boot, as its long time connotation is "booting to full working condition". 

     

     

    R C-R Texas, USA 

    We are not all going to agree about the best backup solution, nor should we

     

    A backup is by definition insecure, however its DENOTATION has merged with a CONNOTATION of "archives"

     

    You must agree to several rock hard facts of archive solutions, otherwise you contradict the premise OF archives / backups.

     

    1. redundancy is the ONLY safety

     

    2. All professional and multinationals AGREE that in addition to redundancy, multi-platform archives are second tier security (optical, HD, archival optical, huge tape backups [consumers cant afford this], and lastly online archives)

     

    3. Archives must be separate in both storage platform, but lastly in PLACE, both locally for Active data, but in fireboxes, and safes for static data,......and BOTH active and static data ONLINE & offsite on multiple server locations.

     

    *~You cannot logically deny 1, 2, 3.  If you do you've only contradicted the core premise of data protection.

  • by PlotinusVeritas,

    PlotinusVeritas PlotinusVeritas Nov 14, 2013 8:18 PM in response to R C-R
    Level 6 (14,806 points)
    Nov 14, 2013 8:18 PM in response to R C-R

    From the late great expert on Time Machine, PONDINI:

     

    (http://pondini.org/TM/Clones.html)

     

    *Time Machine Disadvantages

     

    "For most non-professional users, Time Machine is simple, workable, and maintenance-free. But it does have its disadvantages"

    1. It’s not bootable (!!!). If your internal HD fails, you can't boot directly from your Time Machine backups (!!!).  You must restore them, either to your repaired/replaced internal HD or an external disk.   This is a fairly simple, but of course lengthy, procedure(!!!).  You can also transfer the apps, user accounts, and data to another disk or Mac, via Setup Assistant or Migration Assistant.
    2. However, if you're running Lion 10.7.2 or above, and backing-up to a directly-connected external HD, there's probably a copy of your Recovery HD on the Time Machine drive, so if your internal HD fails, you can start from that.
    3. Time Machine doesn't keep its copies of changed/deleted items forever (**IMPORTANT, my words here), and you're usually(!!!) not notified when it deletes them.
    4. It can back up to many network locations, but not from any.
    5. Time Machine is relatively complex internally (*my words here = failure point), and while it’s been around for a while, there are still some things it doesn’t do (like back up your photos while iPhoto is open).  

     

     

     

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-3045

     

    "Computer newbies tend to use TimeMachine exclusively"

     

    Assuming TimeMachine doesn't delete data, it does.

     

    TimeMachine is NOT a permanent storage drive, eventually or by large changes the TimeMachine saved states can change and thus your older saved states with files will be gone.

     

    "I'm sick over the loss of my pictures, but I've accepted there is nothing I can do at this point. I'm trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. I feel like I trusted Time Machine and it let me down, but that might be because I thought it was doing something that it really wasn't."

     

    see: Time Machine not a true backup?

     

    If you want a permanent, archived version bootable  state of your OS X boot partition, then you need to look at making a bootable clone(!!!) image on another external drive, use TimeMachine for more immediate uses and restores.

     

     

    Assuming TimeMachine will always restore any/all data, it doesn't.

     

    I don't advise making a TimeMachine drive if your experiencing problems with your machine, quickly copy just the Users file folders off the machine to a storage drive as soon as possible as your boot drive may be dying and the TM will take too long to setup or copy corrupted data.

     

    If TM is your only backup, don't be too quick to erase the internal boot drive (and thus your only other copy of data) if OS X is refusing to boot.

     

    Or attempt to recover a extra copy of your data off the boot drive first: .Create a data recovery/undelete external boot drive

     

    One can't easily verify if the data on the TimeMachine drive(!!!) will restore properly or not if and when you do have a problem with the internal boot drive. TimeMachine is a backup only,  it's not bootable to confirm reliability to restore, thus it backs up corruption unawares just as easily as it does the good stuff.

     

    Many people have erased their only copy of their data off a boot drive thinking TM will restore, only to have it also corrupted and fail to restore.(!!!)

     

    TM drives also have none or limited booting to restore-only capability so they force you to get your Mac's internal drive immediately repaired, which you may not be in the condition to do so.

  • by R C-R,

    R C-R R C-R Nov 14, 2013 9:46 PM in response to PlotinusVeritas
    Level 6 (17,623 points)
    Nov 14, 2013 9:46 PM in response to PlotinusVeritas

    PlotinusVeritas wrote:

    What "time consuming" option is that?  I have say 100 PDF files created in the past 2 days in a folder marked "11-10-2013 PDF".

          Every day I drag that folder to an external HD.

    You have partially answered your own question!

    --Do you have any experience actually using anything other than TM?

     

    As I have already mentioned, I use both clones & TM backups & recommend that others do the same since neither one by itself does everything equally well. Beyond that, I have used & comparison tested CCC, SuperDuper!, & several other cloning methods over the years & am familiar with the strengths & weaknesses of each of them, which BTW has varied considerably over time depending on the underlying processes they use to copy files or blocks, how they treat metadata, etc. In the dim dark past, I have used Retrospect for archival purposes, experimented with various spanning techniques & formats for use with mag-optical & then CD & DVD disks with limited capacities, & so on.

     

    I don't consider myself an expert on the subject but I do have decades of first hand experience to draw on, & to the extent possible I always try to test the accuracy & effectiveness of anything I mention in these forums before I post it.

    This is a statement you completely didnt understand.....I was speaking of a HD clone, when installed, will boot FASTER than the good working original in most cases. This is proven fact, due to how CCC and SuperDuper defrag in the clone process.

    I didn't misunderstand anything. I understand quite well why SD!, CCC, & other cloning methods defragment during cloning (including the fact that ones using high speed block copies do not do this), what real world differences in boot times one can actually expect to see, & how long that difference will be maintained.

     

    That's because I have tested this many times over the years with different systems, drives, & cloning methods. I have noted the effects of improvements in the Mac OS like hot file clustering & delayed writes to minimize the differences by reducing file fragmentation to begin with, how improvements in adaptive caching algorithms & larger on-board buffers in more modern drives reduce the effects of even considerable fragmentation to insignificant levels, & when defragmentation actually saves any time when one considers everything involved in changing out a drive (when the model permits that to be done quickly & easily) or recloning back to the already installed drive when that is more practical.

     

    I'm also quite familiar with David Nanian's stuff -- including the fact that he did not nor has he ever claimed to "discover" the defragmentation capabilities of file-copy-based cloning software or overstated its effectiveness. He also makes the point that SD! is "the perfect complement to Time Machine," which is what a number of us have been saying throughout this topic.

     

    As for the rest of it, you are focusing too much on irrelevant points that don't merit any more discussion here. I apologize to the OP for getting involved in this to begin with so the best thing I can do at this point is to quit responding to any of it.

  • by PlotinusVeritas,

    PlotinusVeritas PlotinusVeritas Nov 14, 2013 10:21 PM in response to R C-R
    Level 6 (14,806 points)
    Nov 14, 2013 10:21 PM in response to R C-R

    Ohh, we are just having a lively discussion , ....from the OP last comment, I get the feeling hes eating popcorn and watching (maybe, lol).

     

     

    A HD clone, when created, is verified before it is finalized, meaning outside of physical / magnetic corruption, the HD clone is “good to go”, period.

     

    Time machine is very complex “under the hood”, and anyone who relies either solely on Time machine or uses it as a storage platform for vital files is making a huge mistake.

     

     

    Time machine can encounter countless errors in recovery at any time, whereas a HD clone is finalized and verified before it finishes, meaning it doesn’t suffer this fatal flaw that Time machine can suffer.

     

    The Butterfly Effect or why Time Machine is bound to FAIL

     

     

    A HD clone has no weakness if you use it as intended, as a system restore; it has countless advantages.

     

    A TM backup has MANY weaknesses, ...and if you use it as intended, as a system restore; it has countless disadvantages.

     

    try reading this thread or 1000 more like it:

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3684176?start=0&tstart=0

     

    TM or clone,....you cant "bloat" either one reasonably, logically, nor should you with huge expanding data. Period.        Nobody on earth can argue this fact.

     

    Given that fact, why is anyone talking about TM or clone in respect to data archives?

     

     

    R C-R Texas, USA

    As for the rest of it, you are focusing too much on irrelevant points

     

    I may have been verbose, but didnt make a bunch of irrelevant points.

     

     

    Nobody should ever (not referring to TM or clone for system restore) have or let any software / APP sit between themselves and vital data, ever.

     

    stick it on a formatted HD (many many of them in my case)

    stick the small important stuff on archival century-DVD media to last 100+ years

    make redundant copies of both of those.

    Make an absolute redundancy of all that again online on servers around the globe.

     

     

    If you want genuine serious hard-core data archives, buy some Platinum-Sapphire drives to be written to.

     

    write-once on platinum sandwiched in between layers of carborundum (synthetic sapphire).

     

    Apparently certified to last 1,000,000 years.    Cost $35,000 each.  (price expected to decline quickly). 

     

     

     

    Lively discussions are healthy and educational usually for everyone, .....big hugs to all the posters here.

    big_hug_for_you-859aa66c6ce2dae1f9b4f7f49684e4fa.jpg

  • by R C-R,

    R C-R R C-R Nov 15, 2013 2:41 AM in response to PlotinusVeritas
    Level 6 (17,623 points)
    Nov 15, 2013 2:41 AM in response to PlotinusVeritas

    PlotinusVeritas wrote:

    Nobody should ever (not referring to TM or clone for system restore) have or let any software / APP sit between themselves and vital data, ever.

    You have no idea what you are talking about. Without software there is no way to either write data to or read it from digital media.

  • by Tony T1,

    Tony T1 Tony T1 Nov 15, 2013 5:03 AM in response to chrstene96
    Level 6 (9,225 points)
    Mac OS X
    Nov 15, 2013 5:03 AM in response to chrstene96

    Already said, but worth repeating if the OP is still reading

     

    chrstene96 wrote:

     

    Any suggestions for an External HD that I can use?  (also, I was thinking 1 TB was a decent size to get)?

     

    Thanks so much for your help !

     

    Christine

     

    We've staryed a bit off topic

     

    I always use either Newegg or OWC  for my hardware purchases.

    If you have a 500GB Mac Drive, and you will only use the drive for cloning, then by definition, all you need is a 500GB drive.   What is the USED space on your drive?  As CCC and SD allow incremental backups, you may need more available space, but if you're only 1/2 used on the Mac (250GB), then 500GB is enough.

     

    As has been stated, the problem with the WD Drives and Mavericks is the usually the WD Software, not the drive.

     

    Since you already have a Time Capsule and you are now looking for a secondary backup (good idea), unless your Mac HD is almost full, I would suggest re-partitioning your WD drive and use that for the clone.

  • by PlotinusVeritas,

    PlotinusVeritas PlotinusVeritas Nov 15, 2013 6:15 AM in response to R C-R
    Level 6 (14,806 points)
    Nov 15, 2013 6:15 AM in response to R C-R

    R C-R      Texas, USA

    You have no idea what you are talking about. Without software there is no way to either write data to or read it from digital

     

     

    You fundamentally fail to understand for some reason,....once a hd clone is made,  the cloning software is no longer needed.  Period

     

    data on a formatted hd is just that, data

     

    time machine has error codes in saving and restoring a mile long

     

    additionally, to backup or do a full or partial restore the complex TM software is needed

     

     

    There are no error codes or software on either a formatted HD with data or a clone

     

    Its called a TM backup and not a data backup for a reason

     

     

    Of course you need the OS software to READ any drive.

     

     

    google TM error codes,   maybe 300,000 hits

     

    google HD clone error codes,    maybe 30 hits

     

     

    As per Pondini this TM complex software is a 'significant disadvantage'

  • by chrstene96,

    chrstene96 chrstene96 Nov 15, 2013 8:07 AM in response to PlotinusVeritas
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 15, 2013 8:07 AM in response to PlotinusVeritas

    You mention a good way is to import off the camera directly to a folder that is NOT in iPhoto. 

     

    1.  What about the 18000 photos I already HAVE in iPhoto already that I would like to safeguard and protect (archive)? 

     

    2.  Secondly, I'm just a mom on the run and MOST of my pictures are not even taken with my camera on an every day basis, but with my iPhone.  I let them sync to my MPB through photostream and auto import into iPhoto. 

    I only drag out the real camera for special occassions and sporting events these days

  • by Tony T1,

    Tony T1 Tony T1 Nov 15, 2013 8:40 AM in response to chrstene96
    Level 6 (9,225 points)
    Mac OS X
    Nov 15, 2013 8:40 AM in response to chrstene96

    If you have a Time Capsule and then a 2nd Backup with a clone you'll be ok.

    For additional safeguard, consider using a free site like Shutterfly to upload your photo's (upload full size)

     

    If you want to export from IPhoto to another Folder, then in iPhoto: Select All (⌘A), then File->Export->[File Export], click Kind: Original, then Export

     

         Screen Shot 2013-11-15 at 11.32.36 AM.png

     

    You can also look at the options for File Name and Subfolder Format

  • by R C-R,

    R C-R R C-R Nov 15, 2013 8:56 AM in response to PlotinusVeritas
    Level 6 (17,623 points)
    Nov 15, 2013 8:56 AM in response to PlotinusVeritas

    PlotinusVeritas wrote:

    You fundamentally fail to understand for some reason...

    I understand very well that you write with no regard for technical accuracy about things you don't understand very well & have little or no first hand experience with.

     

    Repeatedly, you have made sweeping generalizations that you can't defend other than by claiming you really meant something other than what you said, & your latest reply is just one more example of that.

  • by PlotinusVeritas,

    PlotinusVeritas PlotinusVeritas Nov 15, 2013 10:22 AM in response to R C-R
    Level 6 (14,806 points)
    Nov 15, 2013 10:22 AM in response to R C-R

    time machine backups require TM software for full restore

     

    once a HD clone is made, thats it,  you toss it in or boot from it

     

     

    those are hard facts,...additionally Pondini himself states as much

     

     

    Im certain Pondini knew far far more about TM than you and I combined

     

     

     

    Are you claiming Pondini was wrong? 

  • by Tony T1,

    Tony T1 Tony T1 Nov 15, 2013 11:47 AM in response to PlotinusVeritas
    Level 6 (9,225 points)
    Mac OS X
    Nov 15, 2013 11:47 AM in response to PlotinusVeritas

    PlotinusVeritas wrote:

     

    time machine backups require TM software for full restore

    once a HD clone is made, thats it,  you toss it in or boot from it

     

     

    If you don't want to use TM, use CCC and schedule hourly incremental backups.

     

         Screen Shot 2013-11-15 at 2.46.54 PM.png

  • by PlotinusVeritas,

    PlotinusVeritas PlotinusVeritas Nov 15, 2013 2:17 PM in response to Tony T1
    Level 6 (14,806 points)
    Nov 15, 2013 2:17 PM in response to Tony T1

    Tony T1  

    If you don't want to use TM, use CCC and schedule hourly incremental backups.

     

     

    I drop working files to 2 formatted external HD then later on make another redundant copy and also drop those files online on offsite servers.

     

    With data backed up, Ive no worry about an 'immediately fresh HD clone' with either SuperDuper or CCC,.

     

     

    The most that would be lost by updating a clone once a week or two is a few bookmarks and maybe an APP or two.

     

    Sending system backups/restore and growing personal data both "down the same road" (TM or clone) is a bad premise if youre creating a lot of data.

     

    send the System backup down one 'road' (TM or Clone)

     

    send the data made/saved/created down another 'road' (external formatted driveS, and oneline storage).

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