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Jan 7, 2014 4:29 PM in response to Bob Hickmanby bodosom,Bob Hickman wrote:
What i did find interesting was when I connected up my ATV to my Verizon Mifi 4G LTE. ... My ATV was perfectly happy streaming at 5800 SHD, it did drop to 4300 for a few seconds, but then popped right back up to 5800.
I find the best predictor of ATV performance to be the content distribution network being used. If I used LTE and it reliably connected to llnw I presume it would also work as expected. However as previously noted I'm not doing any more fiddling so, as tempting as it is, no LTE test for me.
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Jan 7, 2014 4:31 PM in response to GaryJR4by bodosom,GaryJR4 wrote:
Really? I even have issues with it on Chromecast now where before it was rock solid, You don't have to look back far in this thread to see problems with Roku and other devices where there were none before.
In general people aren't reporting much information. Certainly not the CDN. Which one are you connecting to when you have problems?
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Jan 7, 2014 4:32 PM in response to JesseBobby Bob Hickman,JesseBob,
You do seem to have a unique issue with streaming on your iPads. I am running on an iPad 3, 7.0.4. I have streamed up to 2 hrs (I think that was the last length of a movie the other day). No lockups or loss of the airplay icon. In the past two weeks I have streamed at least 20 shows from my iPad.
The fact that you can reproduce this on three different versions of the iPad, that *****.....
(Sorry got zero suggestions).
What ISP do you have? Do you have a friend with a different ISP? Would be interesting to test this out using a different ISP. The only common point between your 3 iPads is your network and ISP. And iOS 7.0.4 of course.
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Jan 7, 2014 4:35 PM in response to bodosomby Bob Hickman,Bodosom,
I have not been able to figure out just how to display what CDN I am connecting up with......
Still working on that ......
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Jan 7, 2014 6:03 PM in response to Bob Hickmanby Loner T,Bob Hickman wrote:
What i did find interesting was when I connected up my ATV to my Verizon Mifi 4G LTE. Speed tested that link at 18 Mbs down, 10 up. My ATV was perfectly happy streaming at 5800 SHD, it did drop to 4300 for a few seconds, but then popped right back up to 5800. So if the stream is clean enough, the new ATV app can stream at 5800. It's very confusing that many with cable and 25 to 50 Mps down also have the exact same issue.
The LTE connection vs. TWC path is completely different and you probably have two different CDNs as bodosom points out. Most of the ISPs backhaul the customer network to a POP/Regional egress point before the subscriber requests get out of the ISP network to cross network borders between ISPs.
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Jan 7, 2014 7:37 PM in response to DustyStormby Dgeorgenyc,On the Netflix website, under "Your Account", I changed "Playback Settings" from "Auto" to "High". Although the picture doesn't seem to be as sharp as the intermittent Super HD, at least it isn't the more common pixelated mess streamed under the "Auto" setting.
Possibly relevant details:
1080p screen
Apple TV 3 with latest updates installed
50 Mbps down hard wired Internet connection
No problems with 1080p from any other streaming services
Netflix support, as stated by others in this forum, had no idea about this. It seems at this point it should at least be recognized as a "known issue" that they are trying to resolve. After the call, I emailed their support copying a link to this forum.
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Jan 8, 2014 5:49 AM in response to bodosomby Loner T,@bodosom.. Off-topic but your experience with nTop may help me get this working.
- https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5763514
Bob Hickman may also be interested.
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Jan 8, 2014 7:19 AM in response to Loner Tby bodosom,^
I do all my network measurements on my gateway machine. It runs Linux and I use VNC (to my MacBook) should I need to run X applications. I've long since given up on ports.
I've mostly used etherape and ntop to look at the Netflix problem.
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Jan 8, 2014 8:04 AM in response to DustyStormby rich1383,It is beginning to sound to me like there may be several different factors that are affecting people differrently. My issue is definitely Netflix/ISP/CDN related, drawn from this set of facts:
- new FIOS account in Boston area, same service as 6 months ago but now in a different town; Actiontec MI424WR router
- 75/35 Mbps speed, verified with speedtest.net before/during/after any Netflix testing - sometimes hits 80Mbps download even in the evening
- ATV latest version (6.0.2?) w/hardwired 10/100 ethernet direct to the FIOS router
- TiVo Premiere 4 DVR w/hardwired 10/100 ethernet direct to the FIOS router
- Netflix in the evenings on *both* devices always runs in low-res SD, looking like a VCR tape; Netflix Example Short 23.976 shows ~300kbps; this was not a problem 6+ months ago in our previous FIOS location, thought much may have changed since then, (I *heard* including FIOS changing compression algs just last June to MP4??)
- All other streaming functions on TiVo or ATV work fine/look great any time of day or night
- Just today I tried the Example Short movie on Netflix in the morning (Wed 10am), and it ran on both ATV and TiVo at 3500-5000 kbps, with great HD quality (as did a show I tried).
So, for me, it is not the hardware or software on site, and it is obviously not WiFi quality since everything is hardwired (they are all right next to each other, connected with short, quality Ethernet cables). It is time-of-day related, and is solely Netflix, and is independent of which box I use (ATV or TiVo).
Perhaps I should shoot and post a video of the Example Short running at both times so that Netflix/Apple techs can have a look, though it seems to me to be more Netflix/FIOS interaction, and local to the CDN?
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Jan 8, 2014 10:50 AM in response to Loner Tby Bob Hickman,Loner T wrote:
Bob Hickman wrote:
What i did find interesting was when I connected up my ATV to my Verizon Mifi 4G LTE. Speed tested that link at 18 Mbs down, 10 up. My ATV was perfectly happy streaming at 5800 SHD, it did drop to 4300 for a few seconds, but then popped right back up to 5800. So if the stream is clean enough, the new ATV app can stream at 5800. It's very confusing that many with cable and 25 to 50 Mps down also have the exact same issue.
The LTE connection vs. TWC path is completely different and you probably have two different CDNs as bodosom points out. Most of the ISPs backhaul the customer network to a POP/Regional egress point before the subscriber requests get out of the ISP network to cross network borders between ISPs.
Group,
Yes, I understand the fact that there is most likely two different CDNs. And obviously two completely different networks. The LTE networks keeps my ATV happy, the TWC network does not.
So who owns the CDNs, and who is responsible for selecting the CDN that I stream from? For my TWC ISP, which from what i gather is not part of this Netflix open connect, does TWC direct my ATV to a specifc CDN, or is that part of the handshake between my ATV and Netflix, in which Netflix would control which CDN.
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Jan 8, 2014 11:17 AM in response to Bob Hickmanby Loner T,Take a look at this link - http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~viadhi/netflix.pdf
The CDNs are owned/operated by Netflix (or on their behalf).
TWC has very little control where to point you to for content. They control the network egress and routing within their internal domain and associated traffic shaping.
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Jan 8, 2014 12:51 PM in response to Loner Tby jimpal,Loner T wrote:
Take a look at this link - http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~viadhi/netflix.pdf
The CDNs are owned/operated by Netflix (or on their behalf).
TWC has very little control where to point you to for content. They control the network egress and routing within their internal domain and associated traffic shaping.
Loner T, I think you have provided one of the most useful contributions to this thread with this link. The paper seems to be a couple of years old, but provides great insight into what goes on with Netflix's content distribution.
They make a couple of interesting points, for example:
- . . . We find that Netflix plays stay attached to a fixed CDN even when the other CDN's can offer better video quality.
- . . . The results show there is significant variation in CDN performance across time and location.
Of course, much has probably changed since this paper was published. But the principles and data presented go a long way toward explaining how it is Netflix's distribution which is leading to the problems discussed in this thread.
Fellow posters, before you return your Apple TV, go from wireless to direct ethernet connect, change DNS, revert your ATV's operating system to an earlier version, cycle your router, etc., etc., READ THIS!
Many thanks for providing this, Loner T.
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Jan 8, 2014 2:05 PM in response to Bob Hickmanby bodosom,Bob Hickman wrote:
So who owns the CDNs
They are owned by various companies. Netflix has contracted with various networks over time and I think they currently have overlapping five year contracts with Limelight (which is pure services) and Level3 which is a Tier 1 network provider that runs a CDN. Both of those contracts are nearing end of term. Netflix also runs their own CDN and their strategic direction appears to be to consolidate their traffic onto their own network.
Bob Hickman wrote:
who is responsible for selecting the CDN that I stream from?
Netflix.
Of course if your ISP has a Netflix cache then nominally none of this applies. You're served from the cache. If your ISP peers with Netflix then presumably these effects are minimized because that peering point would be prefered.
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Jan 8, 2014 2:10 PM in response to Loner Tby bodosom,Loner T wrote:
Take a look at this link - http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~viadhi/netflix.pdf
This is a useful introduction but in my corner of the network it doesn't work as described in the paper. I suspect the state of the art at Neflix has moved well past what they saw in 2011 or it may simply be that the Silverlight client is a special case.
