Q: Hard Drive

@PlotinusVeritas

I was looking for some of those "Taiyo Yuden" DVDs.

These seem to be packaged in multiple types of packages, for example one version has the white inkjet back.

Any difference between them that you know of? They don't make any "discount" versions to the best of your knowledge, do they?

Yes, there are many flavors and types of packing.

These are the ones you want:

DVD+R47ZZSB8

JVC Product Code:   JDPR-ZZ-SB

$39 per 100

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Pak-8X-SPEED-TAIYO-YUDEN-DVD-R-Media-Archival-/22028 3831638?pt=US_CD_DVD_Blu_ray_Discs&hash=item3349f08556

Clear, non-logo, shiny-silver surface

(or same product on amazon.com  etc.)

DONT get any DVD-R, only +R

Use DVD+R for your archives, not DVD-R

Fred1956 wrote:

 

They don't make any "discount" versions to the best of your knowledge, do they?

$40 per 100 on the BEST archival DVD blank media is already extremely / absurdly cheap

Thats a difference of $10 per 100 (on average) separating out the trash from the treasure.

Realistic perspective is needed in this instance.

I believe you've convinced me to at least try this as well. I, by the way, was one of the OD naysayers, but I checked the specs on those DVDs and if they meet 1/2 their predicted life expectancy it's probably a safe bet they'll outlast me.

I've got gigabytes of legacy source code that's just taking up space and being bounced from drive to drive as backups and clones occur. This way I think I can feel a little more secure.

Thanks.

$10 per 100 disks is separating retail level garbage from gold.

as such youre paying 10 cents more per DVD to get an average of 50+ YEARS of archival life.

thats not even including a near 0 reject rate on the gold level DVD media vs. about a 8-15% reject rate on the garbage

Thanks for the info. I don't have tons of source code like the other guy, but what I have are DVDs of movies I made some time ago. It just seems to me that once they get to a certain age it's almost like the surface material starts failing and the things become no good. It doesn't seem to matter if they were even played much. I'll also use them to store all types of other data, like tax returns, photos, music, etc.

Some of the stores around here are selling name brands for about the same price or more, and they're the types that are giving me problems now. I read one review of optcal media and it said that some of the distributors, like HP, were simply sourcing their products from a host of manufacturers and then sticking their own name brand on it. The quality of the manufacturers product apparently varies very widely and even unpredictably which is why I guess sometimes what was thought to be a reliable brand in one batch becomes junk in the next.

I wanted a specific part number because I noticed the Taiyo-Yuden also had a number of variants and was afraid maybe they were doing the same thing.

I always buy the higher capacity DVD-R's at Amazon -> http://www.amazon.com/Taiyo-Yuden-Printable-50-Disc-Spindle/dp/B0037NYFJY/ref=sr _1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1399835101&sr=1-5&keywords=taiyo+yuden+dvd-r+8.4g b.

Clinton

Fred1956 wrote:

 

Thanks for the info. I don't have tons of source code like the other guy, but what I have are DVDs of movies I made some time ago. It just seems to me that once they get to a certain age it's almost like the surface material starts failing and the things become no good. It doesn't seem to matter if they were even played much. I'll also use them to store all types of other data, like tax returns, photos, music, etc.

 

 

I wanted a specific part number because I noticed the Taiyo-Yuden also had a number of variants and was afraid maybe they were doing the same thing.

Yes, they sell a lot of diff. varieties.    Get the Silver lacquer DVD+R, as mentioned.

important texts, DVD, PDF, etc etc  all the SMALL and super important stuff belongs on archival DVD

deeds, wills, books, PDF, financial, etc etc.

Always get +R because -R is an inferior write method and more unstable (by ANY manufacturer)

Use DVD+R for your archives, not DVD-R

Since your data is so valuable, its is a stated necessity that you not purchase low grade retail DVD blank media rather ‘century-disks’ as meant 60+ year or 100+ year professional archival DVD blank media (such as Taiyo Yuden or otherwise). These blank media average only 20% more than consumer level DVD blanks, but are extremely reliable, have an extremely low reject rate of bad blanks, and your valuable data and work is most certainly worth the cost of 100-pack of DVD blanks which are only $15 or so more than the typical blanks.

As to the type of professional DVD blank media: DVD-R is inferior for data preservation for several reasons: error correction, wobble tracking, and writing method. For a DVD to track where it is on the disc, it uses three things: the ‘wobble’ of the data track to tell where it is in the track, the position of the track to tell where it is on the disc, and some additional information where on the disc to tell where the track begins and ends. On –R media, the ATIP is stored as a frequency modulation in the wobble itself; since the wobble changes subtly to encode data, it is impossible to use with the small size of tracks DVD requires, as electric noise in the laser pickup and wobbles introduced by the electric motor spinning the disc, these could easily be read as frequency changes in the real track itself.

On DVD-R this problem had been attempted to be solved by ‘pre-pits’ where spikes in the amplitude of the wobble appear due to pits fully out of phase with the rest of the track (between two spirals of the track, where there is no data). This can be viewed as a simple improvement over CD-R as it makes it easier to track the wobble. This method has one flaw: due to electric noise in the laser pickup, it would be very easy to miss the pre-pit (or read one that wasn’t actually there) if the disc were damaged or spun at fast speeds. DVD-R traded hard to track frequency changes for hard to read wobble-encoded data.

On a DVD+R there is a better write method. Instead of changing the frequency of the wobble, or causing amplitude spikes in the wobble, they use complete phase changes. Where DVD-R’s methods make you choose between either easy wobble tracking or easy ATIP reading, DVD+R method makes it very easy to track the wobble, and also very easy to encode data into the wobble. DVD+R method is called ADIP (Address In Pre-groove).

Now, the third item on the list: how DVD+R discs burn better. ATIP/pre-pit/ADIP stores information about optimum power control settings. DVD-R basically fails on all three accounts because DVD+R simply includes far more information about the media in the ADIP data than DVD-R does in it’s pre-pit data. DVD+R includes four optimum profiles, one for four major burning speeds. Each of these profiles includes optimum power output based on laser wavelength, more precise laser power settings, and other additional information. With this information, any DVD+R burner can far more optimize its burning strategy to fit the media than it can with DVD-R, thereby providing better burns.

DVD+R also gives four times more scratch space for the drive to calibrate the laser on; more space can only improve the calibration quality. So DVD+R media exists to simply produce better burns and protect your data better, which when it comes to data hub archiving is of vital importance.

I don't mean to be the big naysayer in our newly forming optical disc love fest, but just exactly what proof is there that these things last as long as they claim? I have some hard drives with  ridiculous MTBF numbers and none of them heve ever come close to matching their MTBF numbers.

What a good question, it's been raised before but never to my knowledge has it been answered.

ZV137 wrote:

 

I don't mean to be the big naysayer in our newly forming optical disc love fest, but just exactly what proof is there that these things last as long as they claim? I have some hard drives with  ridiculous MTBF numbers and none of them heve ever come close to matching their MTBF numbers.

Archival DVD have been around now for a hair over 18 years (as I recall).

Theyre still going strong.

Fact:      We know for 10,000% certainty that retail level DVD junk media is pathetic at around 4-10+ years.

Fact:     $10 per 100 disks is separating retail level DVD-garbage from DVD-gold.

ZV137 wrote:

 

I have some hard drives with  ridiculous MTBF numbers and none of them heve ever come close to matching their MTBF numbers.

Thats called a statistically irrelevant sample.

You cannot speculate about the whole from a few parts in a subjective sampling.

I love hard drives, and .......of COURSE I nor anyone wants the pain of burning SLOW DVD disks.

nobody.

Ive got 120+ hard drives for a reason.  Love hard drives like crazy.

But I, nor anyone should be trusting anything for any length of time to hard drives unless its huge Audio/Video/Pics that just has no realistic way of being put on small volume DVD disks.

Given the second law of thermodynamics, any and all current mfg. HD will, under perfect storage conditions tend themselves to depolarization and a point will be reached, even if the HD mechanism is perfect, that the ferromagnetic read/write surface of the platter inside the HD will entropy to the point of no viable return for data extraction. HD life varies, but barring mechanical failure, 3-8 years typically.

There is no "DVD love fest" its just harsh naked reality that ANY and ALL hard drives should be seen for what they are, evil devices with high failure rates in general, undergo rapid-age deterioration and data loss.

Im not losing 20+ years of work because I hate burning slow DVD+R disks that I know, ideally stored, will last long after Im gone

and without question far far far far far longer than ANY pile of multiple hard drives

If the professional DVD+R 60-year rated disks ONLY last half as long as theyre rated for..... , 30 years...

thats still 25 years MORE than the average hard drive.

Take a look into M-DISC technology.  rated for 1000 years.

Will it last 1000 years?   Who knows, Army and other govts. done age-progression testing, it MAY be close to true.

If it lasts ONLY 100 years, and not a 1000

thats still 95 years MORE than any hard drive on earth will hold data on average

There are now Sapphire-Platinum data disks, supposed to last for a MILLION YEARS.  I hear making one might cost $100,000 each

I want my data to at least outlive me, not croak in 5 to 6 years on a hard drive.

General hard drive failure

ZV137 wrote:

 

I don't mean to be the big naysayer in our newly forming optical disc love fest, but just exactly what proof is there that these things last as long as they claim? I have some hard drives with  ridiculous MTBF numbers and none of them heve ever come close to matching their MTBF numbers.

PV has kindly posted lots of colorful pictures that will explain it to us, estimating doesn't prove anything of course but it looks informative.

Csound1 wrote:

 

estimating doesn't prove anything of course but it looks informative.

Estimating 3-8+ years on a hard drive.

Estimating 30-80+ years on archival pro DVD

Those estimates are broad, and likewise, being broad, are extremely accurate fitting the actual model of  HD and DVD archival worse case scenario.

Therefore, given 8, lets say 10 years MAX on a perfect hard drive best case scenario

and therefore given MINIMUM 30 years worst case scenario on DVD

we have therefore a 20 year spread best case hopes on a hard drive AGAINST worse case pessimism against DVD archival.

At $40 per 100, thats 20 years more on DVDs, given a worse case scenario lifespan.

PlotinusVeritas wrote:

 

 

Csound1 wrote:

 

estimating doesn't prove anything of course but it looks informative.

 

Estimating 3-8+ years on a hard drive.

Estimating 30-80+ years on archival pro DVD

You can estimate anything you want, it's still not proof.

Csound1 wrote:

 

You can estimate anything you want, it's still not proof.

In fact it is,  hard drive life is a very well know entity.

despite some (few) lasting 10+ years.

To say otherwise is profoundly incorrect.   

Hard drives approach 95% failure at 10 years

Archival DVDs stored correctly are going strong at 0% failure at 18 years

.....and will likely be the same in another 18

There is no counter-position.