aidancaamano

Q: Micronet SCSI Utility Problem

I have recently obtained an Apple HD20SC with its drive replaced with an IBM 153 MB drive. At first, the drive wouldn't mount on my System 6 Desktop when I booted from a disk. I would have to use the Micronet SCSI Utility to mount it manually. I used the Micronet SCSI Utility to create two partitions, 0 and 1. 0 was just a filler partition, with 1 megabyte, while 1 was 152 megabytes. Partition 1 mounted, so I put a system folder on it. I then tried to boot from the drive, but my Macintosh Plus stayed on the ? Floppy Disk Screen. No X. I then tried to format the drive with interleave 3. (I find it strange that the interleaves were in 1, 2, 3, as opposed to , 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, etc.) When I tried to do that, I got a Sense Key = 5, Error Type 36. Formatting Failed. I tried formatting in every interleave, 1-7, but only interleave 1 would work. I know that the Macintosh Plus requires interleave 3 or 3:1. The Micronet SCSI Utility will not let me do that. The Drive is terminated properly, with the terminator in the upper SCSI port on the drive, and the SCSI Cable on the lower port. What is going wrong? Should I use the Apple HD SC setup instead? Do I need to have a battery installed? I have a Utilities Disk with the Apple HD SC setup on it coming in the mail, along with a replacement battery.

 

Maybe it won't boot because I have no proper way to install System 6, other than dragging the system folder on to the hard drive icon on the desktop.

Macintosh Plus 1MB, Mac OS 8.6 or Earlier, Most likely converted from a 128k or 512k

Posted on Jul 26, 2015 7:50 PM

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Q: Micronet SCSI Utility Problem

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  • by Jan Hedlund,

    Jan Hedlund Jan Hedlund Jul 27, 2015 1:17 AM in response to aidancaamano
    Level 6 (9,869 points)
    Jul 27, 2015 1:17 AM in response to aidancaamano

    >I know that the Macintosh Plus requires interleave 3 or 3:1.

     

    Yes, that is the normal setting for a Macintosh Plus. However, depending on the hard drive and its buffer capacity, it may or may not work with a smaller interleave.

     

    >The Micronet SCSI Utility will not let me do that.

     

    You may want to test other formatting utilities (such as Lido 7.56, which needs around 300K disk space). Normally, you should let the utility handle the complete operation with formatting and hard disk driver installation (with the hard drive is connected to the Macintosh Plus). Do not use customised partitions at this point.

     

    >Should I use the Apple HD SC setup instead?

     

    Apple HD SC Setup was designed to handle hard drives with an Apple ROM, and would not (at least not unmodified) work with third-party devices.

     

    >Do I need to have a battery installed?

     

    A Macintosh Plus should boot without a battery installed.

     

    >Maybe it won't boot because I have no proper way to install System 6, other than dragging the system folder on to the hard drive icon on the desktop.

     

    In principle, that is OK. The System Folder should have a little Mac icon. If necessary, one can try to drag the Finder out of the System Folder, then close the System Folder, and finally drag the Finder back in.

     

    Do you have another old Macintosh computer to work with? The ideal situation would be to have a second pre-1998 Mac, with a built-in floppy drive (that can handle both 800K and 1.44 MB), a SCSI port, a CD-ROM drive (internal or external) and Ethernet. That would allow you to handle downloads/transfers from more modern machines (Mac or PC). With Disk Copy 4.2 and/or 6.3.3 installed, properly sector-copied floppy disks could be made from disk images whenever required.

  • by aidancaamano,

    aidancaamano aidancaamano Jul 27, 2015 2:57 PM in response to Jan Hedlund
    Level 1 (4 points)
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    Jul 27, 2015 2:57 PM in response to Jan Hedlund

    I do not have another old Macintosh computer with a floppy drive. I have an iMac g3, an iBook g3 Clamshell, and a Power Mac g4 Cube. The only pre-1998 Mac that I have is the Macintosh Plus 1MB. The utilities disk that I am getting comes from here: http://www.rescuemyclassicmac.com/buyadisk/buyadisk.html

     

    It comes with: Apple HD SC Setup 7.3.5 (Patched version), Welcome 1.2.1, Lido 7.56, Lido INIT, Iomega ZIP INIT, PMount

     

    Should I get the System 6 multiple disk installer from the site? Do you think the drive would work with the 3/3:1 interleave? Also, what does the SCSI Utility error that I mentioned mean? Do you think the problem is in the Utility's limited features? I tried dragging the finder out of the system folder, then back in, to no avail. When the finder file is in the system folder, it has the little Mac icon, but when I took it out, it went away.

  • by Jan Hedlund,

    Jan Hedlund Jan Hedlund Jul 27, 2015 4:12 PM in response to aidancaamano
    Level 6 (9,869 points)
    Jul 27, 2015 4:12 PM in response to aidancaamano

    Which System 6 version do you have? For users with a Macintosh Plus with only 1 MB of RAM, System 6.0.3 would be appropriate. If you wish to carry out a complete installation of a later version, or System 7, do install more memory (the total maximum is 4 MB). Also, we cannot rule out that the limited amount of RAM may affect the operation of certain disk utilities.

     

    Sorry, I do not know exactly what is causing the error message. You will just have to carry on with tests. Try all the available disk formatting utilities until the hard drive (hopefully) is working OK.

     

    The Finder should be in the System Folder. The moving back and forth is only necessary if the System Folder does not show a Mac icon.

  • by aidancaamano,

    aidancaamano aidancaamano Jul 27, 2015 7:27 PM in response to Jan Hedlund
    Level 1 (4 points)
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    Jul 27, 2015 7:27 PM in response to Jan Hedlund

    I am trying to install System 6.0.4, Finder 6.1.4. I have also ordered four 30-pin 1MB SIMMS. I have already tested pretty much every feature of the SCSI Utility. I'll just wait for the Utilities Disk to arrive.

  • by aidancaamano,

    aidancaamano aidancaamano Jul 29, 2015 4:37 PM in response to aidancaamano
    Level 1 (4 points)
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    Jul 29, 2015 4:37 PM in response to aidancaamano

    I got the Utilities Disk today. I tried to use Lido 7.56, but as soon as it started up, I got a System Error ID=12. What does this mean?

  • by Jan Hedlund,

    Jan Hedlund Jan Hedlund Jul 29, 2015 5:32 PM in response to aidancaamano
    Level 6 (9,869 points)
    Jul 29, 2015 5:32 PM in response to aidancaamano

    Error code lists seem to indicate that this is an "Unimplemented Core Routine". Unfortunately, that does not tell me much in this very case. Are you still running the computer with 1 MB of RAM (or have you installed the new modules for a total of 4 MB)? If 1 MB, we should perhaps not rule out that it possibly could be insufficient for the utility. Was the received floppy with the utilities bootable, or did you somehow have to copy Lido 7.56 to an existing (System 6.0.4?) startup floppy? The lowest supported/possible operating system version for Lido 7.56 is not known to me.

  • by aidancaamano,

    aidancaamano aidancaamano Jul 29, 2015 6:26 PM in response to Jan Hedlund
    Level 1 (4 points)
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    Jul 29, 2015 6:26 PM in response to Jan Hedlund

    I have installed the new memory. It now has 4,096K of memory. I also clipped the resistor as necessary. The floppy disk was not bootable. I booted from the Micronet SCSI Utility Disk, and inserted the other disk into the external disk drive. It is running System 6.0.4. I tried running Lido in an older system, and it told me that it required System 6.0.4 or higher. I also tried using PMount, but everything was greyed out. Lido gives me the same system error even if the hard drive is not powered up, so the hard drive is not the problem. The patched version of Apple HD SC Setup 7.3.5 cannot initialize the drive.

  • by Jan Hedlund,

    Jan Hedlund Jan Hedlund Jul 29, 2015 8:17 PM in response to aidancaamano
    Level 6 (9,869 points)
    Jul 29, 2015 8:17 PM in response to aidancaamano

    Since you appear to have tested all formatting applications with a System 6.0.4 or lower, it would perhaps not be a bad idea to try a later operating system version startup disk (for example, a System 6.0.8 utilities floppy, or a System 7.0 disk tools disk).

  • by aidancaamano,

    aidancaamano aidancaamano Aug 5, 2015 8:36 PM in response to Jan Hedlund
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Desktops
    Aug 5, 2015 8:36 PM in response to Jan Hedlund

    So, I got a system 6.0.8 disk, and was able to use Lido. However, when I tried to set the interleave to 3:1, format fails, with no reason given. I could format with interleave 0:1. I also got the four disk system 6.0.8 installer, but I still cannot get it to boot from the hard drive. PMount works if I have a volume on the drive, but even after using, it still won't work. Apple HD SC setup still fails.

  • by Jan Hedlund,

    Jan Hedlund Jan Hedlund Aug 6, 2015 11:35 PM in response to aidancaamano
    Level 6 (9,869 points)
    Aug 6, 2015 11:35 PM in response to aidancaamano

    Could it possibly be that interleave 1 is sufficient because of the hard drive having an adequate buffer capacity?

     

    There were certain problems related to different ROM versions ("Macintosh Plus ROM Versions" under the date 1987-07-01 at https://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/navigation/). I do not know whether this is of importance here, though.

  • by aidancaamano,

    aidancaamano aidancaamano Aug 7, 2015 6:56 PM in response to Jan Hedlund
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Desktops
    Aug 7, 2015 6:56 PM in response to Jan Hedlund

    Are you saying that the hard drive is the problem, not the computer or software? If so, what can I do to fix the problem in the drive? If the problem is in the ROM, where can I get a later version ROM chip? The drive mounts on the desktop, and I can read and write files, I just can't boot from the drive. I used the System 6.0.8 installer, and the system folder is "blessed." It simply doesn't boot. When I turn the drive on, and then the computer, it stays at the ? floppy disk screen, although I can hear the hard drive head moving back and forth, as if it is checking for a system folder, but nothing happens after minutes. Perhaps I must change the drive ID? The ID is set to 6 right now. I also forgot to mention that when I try to set the interleave to 1, and then format it, Lido says that the interleave is set to 0. All other interleaves fail. Interleave 1 must not be sufficient because the computer won't boot from it, unless there is another problem.

  • by Jan Hedlund,

    Jan Hedlund Jan Hedlund Aug 7, 2015 8:20 PM in response to aidancaamano
    Level 6 (9,869 points)
    Aug 7, 2015 8:20 PM in response to aidancaamano

    >Are you saying that the hard drive is the problem, not the computer or software?

     

    The Macintosh Plus is a bit special compared to the later Macintosh computers. As I understand it, the Plus has a limited ability to control sending and receiving data to a SCSI device. That would require an old hard drive to be formatted with an interleave 3 (thus slowing down the transfer). An exception seems to be if a hard drive has an adequate cache (buffer capacity), which apparently is the case with many slightly more modern SCSI hard drives. So, the question is whether there would be a problem at all if interleave 1 is used.

     

    >Interleave 1 must not be sufficient because the computer won't boot from it, unless there is another problem.

     

    Interleave has something to do with the ability to transfer at a certain speed. The ability to boot or not is something else.

     

    >If the problem is in the ROM, where can I get a later version ROM chip?

     

    I do not know if ROM has anything to do with the computer's behaviour in this case, and whether a different version would affect matters. Is your Macintosh Plus an earlier beige or a newer platinum model (see the aforementioned Technical Note "Macintosh Plus ROM Versions")?

     

    >Perhaps I must change the drive ID? The ID is set to 6 right now.

     

    The SCSI ID should not be important, as long as it is between 0 and 6 (and no other device has the same number).

  • by Jan Hedlund,

    Jan Hedlund Jan Hedlund Aug 8, 2015 3:35 AM in response to Jan Hedlund
    Level 6 (9,869 points)
    Aug 8, 2015 3:35 AM in response to Jan Hedlund

    Addendum

     

    >>Interleave 1 must not be sufficient because the computer won't boot from it, unless there is another problem.

     

    >Interleave has something to do with the ability to transfer at a certain speed. The ability to boot or not is something else.

     

    However, difficulties reading from and writing to the hard disk could of course lead to incomplete/delayed data, which might cause boot issues.

     

    Sorry, I do not know whether the boot problem could be related to interleave, cache/buffer, hard disk drive driver software, ROM, or something else. It is probably not going to change anything, but a PRAM reset can always be tested. You will just have to keep on experimenting. Good luck!

     

    It would also be interesting to see if a SCSI Zip 100 drive (Zip 100 disk) behaves in a similar way (http://www.vintagemacworld.com/pluszip.html). Zip drives are usually relatively inexpensive. BTW, an extra USB Zip 100 drive would allow file transfers from/to a more modern computer (even a PC, with the proper method/software).

  • by aidancaamano,

    aidancaamano aidancaamano Aug 8, 2015 9:33 AM in response to Jan Hedlund
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Desktops
    Aug 8, 2015 9:33 AM in response to Jan Hedlund

    I Have a beige Macintosh Plus, most likely converted from a 128k, 512k, or 512ke. How would I perform a PRAM reset? Is there a way to check how much buffer capacity the cache has? What would prevent various formatting utilities from formatting to an interleave other than 1 or 0?

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