Ron Wilson3

Q: PPC G5 CRASHING SOON AFTER STARTUP.

POWER PC G5 DP 2.7.  (2004)   OSX 10.4.11

Crash script.jpg

G5 has been pretty stable for some time. Recent hints of trouble were random failure of USB stylus for Cintiq display. Sometimes OK, sometimes not. This happened over months.

 

A few days ago video quit. Replaced video card. This restored video but keyboard, mouse and Cintiq stylus did not work. Startups would mostly end with gray screen. When startup managed to get to desktop, screen would freeze after a few minutes.

Shutdown and startups would have to be by power button.

 

Connected G5 to my other computer by fierier and set G5 as Target disk. Used Disk Utility on other computer to fix permissions and Tech Tools to check volume which was OK. Checked PRAM battery which is still 3.6v. Zapped PRAM, Reset PMU button, reseated RAM cards and video card, checked all internal connections.

 

After some of these steps, I managed to get to a full startup which produced a dialog box that my Date and Time were wrong and needed to be changed. When I changed them in Prefs and Saved the change the screen would freeze up. Other restarts only produced a gray screen.

 

I am running out of ideas and options.

 

The last failed restart produced text on the screen. (for the first time) which I am including here. Maybe it will help in figuring out this mystery.

 

Thanks for any help

PowerMac, Mac OS X (10.4.11), G5 DP 2.7GHz

Posted on Jul 31, 2015 11:20 PM

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Q: PPC G5 CRASHING SOON AFTER STARTUP.

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  • by BDAqua,

    BDAqua BDAqua Aug 1, 2015 10:31 AM in response to Ron Wilson3
    Level 10 (123,855 points)
    Aug 1, 2015 10:31 AM in response to Ron Wilson3

    On the face of it, it seems a memory error, (but that can be CPU or Logic Board).

     

    Heat can also be an issue, especially the thermal paste on the CPU, which lasts about 5 years,another is gummed up LC S system.

     

    If you're sure the RAM is good, try the Hair Dryer trick...

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/message/15613068#15613068

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3270112

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/message/16053892#16053892

     

    No power light at all...

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3692775?tstart=0

     

    It can show on any G5, and even many other computers & electronic devices of the period.

     

    http://www.macintouch.com/reliability/pmg5.html

     

    http://lowendmac.com/ppc/power-macintosh-g5.html

     

    And see this last one in particular...

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/message/16781690#16781690

     

    Heat gun better...

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3916312?tstart=0

  • by Ron Wilson3,

    Ron Wilson3 Ron Wilson3 Aug 1, 2015 1:04 PM in response to BDAqua
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Aug 1, 2015 1:04 PM in response to BDAqua

    Thank you for the response. I checked all the links you supplied. Sobering reliability picture of the G5 DP 2.7. Maybe I have been lucky up till now. I have both hairdryer and heat gun. Sounds like the heat gun is the better bet for the motherboard. Can I heat the motherboard in place in the G5 or do I need to do a full disassembly to get at the back of the board where the solder joints are?

     

    With regard to the RAM. I am in a bit of a catch-22. Since my G5 is essentially "blind" I don't know how to test the RAM with Tech Tools. Let me explain:I have the original 10.4 install disks for the G5 and can force it to start with the installer disk using "C" key, but it doesn't boot past the grey screen. Therefore I can't run AHT or Tech Tools.

     

    A possible option is: I have a G4 PowerBook 1.6Gz  with 10.4.11 with it's install disks. I can connect via firewire to the G5 with the G5 in target disk mode,  I am just not sure if I can access AHT on the G4 to run remote diagnostics on the G5 in target disk mode. It seems to me that AHT must be running on the host computer via it's own native instal disks in order to access hardware. Is that the case?

     

    I have seen in many other posts how you have helped lots of people with tricky problems. thank you so much for the service you give. I try to keep my expectations realistic as I know all my macs operate somewhere between hard science and voodoo.

  • by BDAqua,

    BDAqua BDAqua Aug 1, 2015 1:26 PM in response to Ron Wilson3
    Level 10 (123,855 points)
    Aug 1, 2015 1:26 PM in response to Ron Wilson3

    Correct, AHT won't work in Target mode, you might look for an ASD Disc, but it was never available to the public.

     

    RAM tests are very inconclusive if they don't outright fail, often passing the RAM test when RAM is so bad it won't boot!?

     

    I'd pull the RAM & heat the RAM slots near the center to 450°F.

     

    My Site...

     

    http://x704.net/bbs/

  • by Ron Wilson3,

    Ron Wilson3 Ron Wilson3 Aug 3, 2015 3:03 PM in response to BDAqua
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Aug 3, 2015 3:03 PM in response to BDAqua

    I am about to do the heat gun to revive the motherboard and wanted clarification. Is this done with the board in place or removed from the computer?

    Looking inside, it looks like solder joints are on the backside of the motherboard, out of site.

    If done inside the machine, do I just do the lower portion around the RAM or also the upper portion around the video card and battery? (ergo: remove video card, battrry, speaker)

    Better safe than sorry : )

     

    Also: should this fail and I need to get another motherboard, what version of AHT or ASD disk is needed for this G5 Dual 2.7 with OS 10.4.11?

     

    Much thanks.

  • by BDAqua,

    BDAqua BDAqua Aug 3, 2015 4:37 PM in response to Ron Wilson3
    Level 10 (123,855 points)
    Aug 3, 2015 4:37 PM in response to Ron Wilson3

    Most people have done it with the board in place,no removal.

     

    As I understand it, the Logic board is 5 layers, & it's the internal ones that go bad, so heating the visible side has been enough in most instances.

     

    I haven't seen where it was needed around the Video card or elsewhere.

     

    ASD 2.5.8

     

    This 2.5.8 version is compatible with the following Mac models ONLY:

     

    PowerBook G4 (17-inch 1.5GHz), PowerBook G4 (17-inch 1.67GHz),

    PowerBook G4 (15-inch 1.5/1.33GHz), PowerBook G4 (15-inch 1.67/1.5GHz), PowerBook G4 (12-inch 1.33GHz), PowerBook G4 (12-inch 1.5GHz),

    iBook G4 (Early 2004), iBook G4 (14-inch Early 2004), eMac (USB2.0),

    Power Mac G5, Power Mac G5 (June 2004 Series), Power Mac G5 (Late 2004),

    Power Mac G5 (Early 2005), iMac G5, iBook G4 (12-inch Late 2004),

    iBook G4 (14-inch Late 2004), Mac mini PPC (First Version), and

    iMac G5 w/ALS (Ambient Light Sensor).

  • by Ron Wilson3,

    Ron Wilson3 Ron Wilson3 Aug 7, 2015 10:51 AM in response to BDAqua
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Aug 7, 2015 10:51 AM in response to BDAqua

    I am totally miffed...

     

    When I first posted this problem, I was having issues with my G5 alternatingly staring with gray screen, no screen or normal screen which would then freeze up a few minutes later in kernel panic.

     

    To try to fix this, I ran Disk Utilities for Permissions and Structure, Zapped PRAM, reset PMU button, Checked PRAM battery, Tested RAM with TechTools Pro. Everything checked out OK.

     

    Feedback on this forum raised the prospect of bad motherboard and possibly faulty verification of RAM by TechTools.

     

    I removed RAM and heated motherboard mostly around RAM slots to 350˚ for 5 minutes. This was as hot a my heat gun would go.

     

    I then used MemTest86 to check RAM. IN a process of elimination, I did one pair at a time rotating them in and out of the slots I knew were OK. All RAM cards checked out OK.

     

    These two procedures improved the ratio of good startups but didn’t eliminate the random kernel panics. Some startups would be OK for hours, others for minutes.

    After hard shutdown, first restart would produce gray screen and second would produce normal startup.

     

    First startup today produced frozen screen and text beginning with:

    “System Failure: cpu=1: code= 00000007 (corrupt skip lists).

    This was followed by “Latest crash info for cpu 1” and much more text  .

     

    After a hard shutdown, got a gray screen. Next startup was normal and lasted for about 30 min. before kernel panic freeze.

     

    So... this mystery deepens. Where do I go from here? Any ideas?

     

    Thanks

  • by BDAqua,

    BDAqua BDAqua Aug 8, 2015 11:05 AM in response to Ron Wilson3
    Level 10 (123,855 points)
    Aug 8, 2015 11:05 AM in response to Ron Wilson3

    I don't think 350°F is hot enough.

  • by Ron Wilson3,

    Ron Wilson3 Ron Wilson3 Aug 8, 2015 11:54 AM in response to BDAqua
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Aug 8, 2015 11:54 AM in response to BDAqua

    You mentioned in an earlier post that solder melts at 415˚. So is that the target temp?

     

    In your experience, with all the symptoms mentioned in my last post, including the ominous "System Failure: cpu-1..." text, you think that the motherboard may still be the culprit? If so I will get me a hotter heat gun and go at it again.

     

    Thanks

  • by BDAqua,

    BDAqua BDAqua Aug 8, 2015 1:40 PM in response to Ron Wilson3
    Level 10 (123,855 points)
    Aug 8, 2015 1:40 PM in response to Ron Wilson3

    I think I mentioned 450°, if it was 415° then that was a typo, sorry.

  • by BDAqua,

    BDAqua BDAqua Aug 8, 2015 1:42 PM in response to Ron Wilson3
    Level 10 (123,855 points)
    Aug 8, 2015 1:42 PM in response to Ron Wilson3

    In your experience, with all the symptoms mentioned in my last post, including the ominous "System Failure: cpu-1..." text, you think that the motherboard may still be the culprit?

    Not anywhere near certain, but seems the cheapest test on your part.

  • by Ron Wilson3,

    Ron Wilson3 Ron Wilson3 Aug 8, 2015 9:10 PM in response to BDAqua
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Aug 8, 2015 9:10 PM in response to BDAqua

    With another heat gun I heated the areas around the two RAM slot groups to 450˚. It had me pretty anxious when smoke began pouring out.

    When it cooled, I reloaded RAM and it booted up perfectly. I used the computer for 3 hours of work before it froze up again. Following the freeze I tried rebooting 3 times in a row, each time producing only gray screen. I let it cool for a while and it rebooted perfectly. That seems to indicate the problem is heating of hardware.

     

    Since I really cooked the motherboard with 5 minutes at 450˚ on each RAM slot group it is hard to believe that I will get any better results by doing it again. What do you think?

     

    At this point, kernel panics or freezes seem to only occur after the computer has run for a while (heated up?). Is there a way to zero in on which component is failing without just swapping expensive parts in a process of elimination? If I had some idea, I could determine when to cut my losses rather than rolling the dice.

  • by ChitlinsCC,

    ChitlinsCC ChitlinsCC Aug 8, 2015 11:41 PM in response to Ron Wilson3
    Level 6 (8,172 points)
    Notebooks
    Aug 8, 2015 11:41 PM in response to Ron Wilson3

    Howdy folks (that's what Big Tex at the State Fair suddenly says in a booming voice that scares the cr** out of little kids!)

     

    Been lurking and a thought came to me = could an intermittently failing startup drive exhibit these misbehaviors? What about startup from a known good external drive with a known good OS or fresh Tiger OS on it ("...:I have the original 10.4 install disks for the G5...")

     

    couldn't hurt at this point, could it?

     

    other thoughts:

    "...Checked PRAM battery which is still 3.6v..." - which WOULD produce "...a dialog box that my Date and Time were wrong..." IF you disconnected the battery to test it - would it not?

     

    "...original 10.4 install disks for the G5 and can force it to start with the installer disk using "C" key, but it doesn't boot past the grey screen..." == how do you know for sure that you were actually starting up FROM the optical drive?


    I will slip back into the shadows, and I wish you good luck!

    ÇÇÇ

  • by ChitlinsCC,

    ChitlinsCC ChitlinsCC Aug 8, 2015 11:43 PM in response to ChitlinsCC
    Level 6 (8,172 points)
    Notebooks
    Aug 8, 2015 11:43 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

    Some reading material from Google Search of [ kernel panic hard drive ] terms = http://www.macworld.com/article/2027201/how-to-troubleshoot-a-kernel-panic.html

  • by BDAqua,

    BDAqua BDAqua Aug 9, 2015 10:13 AM in response to Ron Wilson3
    Level 10 (123,855 points)
    Aug 9, 2015 10:13 AM in response to Ron Wilson3

    Good work so far, if it is component heating I'd suspect the thermal paste on the CPU is no longer effective, 5 years is about it's lifespan... did we talk about that yet?

     

    Does the 2.7 have LCS?

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