Chris Bello

Q: iTunes Slow, Possible Corrupt File; What Are Options?

Dealing with a bear of an issue regarding iTunes. Running 12.3.1 and have read about the horror stories since the first version of 12 was released. Still, issue has been persistent prior to the upgrade and has gotten completely unbearable.

 

Made a Genius Bar appointment today. Lucky me as I was informed by the tech that they'd, "never seen anything like this"—showing it off to others working there; everyone having a similar response. Was told my only option is to rebuild my library as there must be a corrupt file in there somewhere. With 35K songs and over 400 playlists, truly hoping to avoid that at all costs.


Currently monitoring iTunes in the Activity Monitor. When a song is playing, CPU% hovers in the 1.4 range. When clicking on another track or attempting to get iTunes to complete an action, the CPU% is spiking as high as 100.5. Seriously. Rainbow Wheel-Of-Death spins relentlessly, laughing at me the whole time. Every action is like pulling teeth; from clicking to a new track, uploading a CD, unchecking songs I don't want to upload, et al.

 


I don't run any virus software. I don't have Vuse, nor do I download any torrents—attempting to keep this thing lean, mean and running smoothly.

 

All music is ripped via CD or purchased off iTunes. This is a three-month old refurbished MacBook (Retina, mid-2012) with a 2.6GHz Intel Core i7, 16GB of memory and 1TB of hard drive space (with over 250GB unused.)


I've backed up my entire iTunes folder to an external drive and planned to create a new iTunes folder—bringing over all the artists and then exporting / re-importing new playlists.

 

Before going down that long and painful road, wondered if anyone had suggestions as to finding and removing corrupt files or troubleshooting this nightmare situation. Thanks in advance for any help or advice. — C

Posted on Nov 3, 2015 12:51 PM

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Q: iTunes Slow, Possible Corrupt File; What Are Options?

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  • Helpful answers

  • by ww_adh,

    ww_adh ww_adh Nov 3, 2015 5:20 PM in response to Chris Bello
    Level 1 (1 points)
    Nov 3, 2015 5:20 PM in response to Chris Bello

    I'm having this problem too, and it's really frustrating, as I use iTunes a lot. The last few weeks, when selecting a song to play or doing other things like moving a track to a playlist, checking/unchecking a track and I get the spinning ball for quite a long time (about 10 seconds each time).

     

    My computer is a late 2011 Macbook Pro, 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB and 750 GB hard drive (over 220 GB free). I'm running iTunes 12.3.1 on OS X 10.11.1 (i.e. the latest versions of both). Noting what you said, I ran the activity monitor and saw the same spiking on the CPU when I selected a song to play or checked/unchecked a track. Serious, checking a track makes iTunes use over 100% of the CPU? That's crazy.

  • by Chris Bello,

    Chris Bello Chris Bello Nov 3, 2015 8:30 PM in response to ww_adh
    Level 1 (11 points)
    Nov 3, 2015 8:30 PM in response to ww_adh

    Pretty frustrating that this seems to be a common theme (from what I've seen online in other threads and now here), yet a trip to the Apple store had the "geniuses" scratching the heads and answer-less.

     

    Seems more like an iTunes issue than a corrupt file problem on my end. Whatever is happening with these iTunes updates; seems the latest versions can't do the heavy-lifting for folks with big library and hundreds of playlists.

     

    Thanks, Apple. Countless hours spent building a respectable library and iTunes on a six-month old MacBook is running slower than my old PC in the late 1990's. Kudos.

  • by ww_adh,

    ww_adh ww_adh Nov 4, 2015 3:47 AM in response to Chris Bello
    Level 1 (1 points)
    Nov 4, 2015 3:47 AM in response to Chris Bello

    I found a longer thread on this issue. One of the commenters suggested uninstalling iTunes and reverting to a previous version and provided instructions on how to do this. I tried it last night, and so far, iTunes appears to be working just fine again--I'm no longer having these weird hangups when doing seemingly simple tasks. A couple caveats: it involves using the Terminal app to completely remove iTunes, so be sure to follow the directions closely. And make sure you don't have iTunes or the App Store set to automatically update, or else the old version you install will just get replaced once your Mac detects an out-of-date version of iTunes running.

     

    Here's that thread:

    Itunes not responding, running extremely slow

  • by Chris Bello,

    Chris Bello Chris Bello Nov 4, 2015 11:45 AM in response to ww_adh
    Level 1 (11 points)
    Nov 4, 2015 11:45 AM in response to ww_adh

    Apple community coming together. Love it.

     

    Cannot believe that such a clunky version of iTunes has (1) been rolled out and (2) is yet to be fixed. Archaic that this is the only answer, to props to whoever solved this riddle and took the time to share with the rest of us.

  • by Chris Bello,

    Chris Bello Chris Bello Nov 5, 2015 1:36 PM in response to Chris Bello
    Level 1 (11 points)
    Nov 5, 2015 1:36 PM in response to Chris Bello

    Downgraded to the older version of iTunes. Helped the slightest bit, but still skyrockets to a CPU% over 100 when doing things within iTunes. (Wheel-Of-Death doesn't last as long, but things are still SUPER clunky.)

     

    Used EtreCheck to generate a report regarding what's going on. All of this stuff is above my head, but seems like there are a handful issues that I'll cut and past here, hoping it makes sense to someone smarter than me. Really don't have it in my to make another Genius Bar appointment as I've been too often lately. Would any of this have to do with iTunes corruption or problems?

     

    System Launch Agents: (What does this mean?)


    [loaded]  
    com.apple.java.InstallOnDemand.plist - Invalid signature!

     

    [loaded]   com.apple.FileSyncAgent.sshd.plist - No signature!

     

       [loaded]   com.apple.airplaydiagnostics.server.mac.plist - /AppleInternal/Applications/AirPlayDiagnostics.app/Contents/Resources/AirPlayDi agnosticsServer: Executable not found!

     

       [loaded]   com.apple.configureLocalKDC.plist - No signature!

     

       [loaded]   com.apple.efax.plist - No signature!

     

       [loaded]   com.apple.emlog.plist - No signature!


       [loaded]   com.apple.gkreport.plist - No signature!


       [loaded]   com.apple.locate.plist - No signature!


       [failed]   com.apple.logd.plist [Click for details]


       [loaded]   org.apache.httpd.plist - No signature!

     

       [loaded]   org.cups.cupsd.plist - Invalid signature!

       [loaded]   org.net-snmp.snmpd.plist - No signature!

       [running]   org.ntp.ntpd.plist - No signature!

     

       [loaded]   org.postfix.newaliases.plist - No signature!

     

       [loaded]   ssh.plist - No signature!

     

     

    Launch Daemons: (What does this mean?)

       [failed]   Z2SXI9RV.plist [Click for support]

  • by etresoft,

    etresoft etresoft Nov 5, 2015 6:26 PM in response to Chris Bello
    Level 7 (29,298 points)
    Mac OS X
    Nov 5, 2015 6:26 PM in response to Chris Bello

    Hello Chris,

    You seem to have turned on some of the options in EtreCheck to show known Apple failures. Those options are really just for people who want to explore the system. They aren't going to be useful in diagnosing a problem. They are "known problems" after all.

     

    Please post the entire EtreCheck report with default settings. EtreCheck just reports the status of various system tasks. The individual values, either running or failed usually have no meaning. But taken together, they may indicate what is wrong or suggest an area for closer inspection.

  • by Chris Bello,

    Chris Bello Chris Bello Nov 6, 2015 7:31 AM in response to etresoft
    Level 1 (11 points)
    Nov 6, 2015 7:31 AM in response to etresoft

    EtreCheck version: 2.6.3 (223)

    Report generated 11/5/15, 12:35 PM

    Runtime 2:10

    Download EtreCheck from http://etresoft.com/etrecheck

     

    Click the [Click for support] links for help with non-Apple products.

    Click the [Click for details] links for more information about that line.

     

    Hide Apple tasks: Disabled

     

    Hardware Information: (What does this mean?)

       MacBook Pro (Retina, Mid 2012)

       [Click for Technical Specifications]

       [Click for User Guide]

       MacBook Pro - model: MacBookPro10,1

       1 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7 CPU: 4-core

       16 GB RAM Not upgradeable

               BANK 0/DIMM0

               8 GB DDR3 1600 MHz ok

           BANK 1/DIMM0

               8 GB DDR3 1600 MHz ok

       Bluetooth: Good - Handoff/Airdrop2 supported

       Wireless: en0: 802.11 a/b/g/n

       Battery: Health = Normal - Cycle count = 149 - SN = D865056Q079DNMHBK

     

    Video Information: (What does this mean?)

       Intel HD Graphics 4000

       NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M - VRAM: 1024 MB

           Color LCD 2880 x 1800

     

    System Software: (What does this mean?)

       OS X El Capitan 10.11.1 (15B42) - Time since boot: about 2 days

     

    Disk Information: (What does this mean?)

       OWC Aura SSD disk0 : (960.2 GB) (Solid State - TRIM: No)

           EFI (disk0s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

           Recovery HD (disk0s3) <not mounted> [Recovery]: 650 MB

           Canes305 (disk1) / : 958.97 GB (173.70 GB free)

               Core Storage: disk0s2 959.34 GB Online

     

    USB Information: (What does this mean?)

       Apple Inc. FaceTime HD Camera (Built-in)

       Apple Inc. Apple Internal Keyboard / Trackpad

       Apple Inc. BRCM20702 Hub

           Apple Inc. Bluetooth USB Host Controller

       Apple Inc. iPhone

       Western Digital My Book         1 TB

           EFI (disk2s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

           OLD Time Machine Backup (disk2s2) /Volumes/OLD Time Machine Backup : 999.86 GB (8.76 GB free)

     

    Thunderbolt Information: (What does this mean?)

       Apple Inc. thunderbolt_bus

           Apple Inc. Thunderbolt to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter

     

    Gatekeeper: (What does this mean?)

       Mac App Store and identified developers

     

    Kernel Extensions: (What does this mean?)

           /Library/Extensions

       [loaded]   at.obdev.nke.LittleSnitch (4352 - SDK 10.8) [Click for support]

     

    System Launch Agents: (What does this mean?)

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       [running]   com.apple.cvmsCompAgent_x86_64.plist

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       [loaded]   com.apple.findmymacmessenger.plist

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       [running]   com.apple.icloud.fmfd.plist

       [running]   com.apple.iconservices.iconservicesagent.plist

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       [running]   com.apple.AirPlayXPCHelper.plist

       [loaded]   com.apple.AppleFileServer.plist

       [running]   com.apple.AssetCacheLocatorService.plist

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       [running]   com.apple.CrashReporterSupportHelper.plist

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       [loaded]   com.apple.DumpGPURestart.plist

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       [running]   com.apple.FileCoordination.plist

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       [loaded]   com.apple.FontWorker.plist

       [loaded]   com.apple.GSSCred.plist

       [loaded]   com.apple.GameController.gamecontrollerd.plist

       [loaded]   com.apple.IFCStart.plist

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       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.mail.03000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.mail.04000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [running]   com.apple.mdworker.shared.01000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [running]   com.apple.mdworker.shared.02000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [running]   com.apple.mdworker.shared.03000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [running]   com.apple.mdworker.shared.04000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.single.01000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.single.02000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.single.03000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.single.04000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.single.05000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.single.06000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.single.07000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.mdworker.single.08000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

       [loaded]   com.apple.messages.BuddyPictureService

       [loaded]   com.apple.sbd

       [loaded]   com.apple.security.XPCKeychainSandboxCheck

       [loaded]   com.apple.security.XPCTimeStampingService

       [loaded]   com.apple.security.agent.login.00000000-0000-0000-0000-0000000186A7

       [loaded]   com.apple.security.authhost.00000000-0000-0000-0000-0000000186A7

       [loaded]   com.apple.sharekit.EntitlementsHelper

       [loaded]   com.apple.systemadministration.writeconfig

       [loaded]   com.apple.tencentweibo.xpc

       [running]   com.apple.tonelibraryd

       [loaded]   com.apple.twitter.xpc

       [loaded]   com.apple.weibo.xpc

       [running]   com.apple.xpc.launchd.oneshot.0x10000002.Little Snitch Network Monitor

       [running]   com.apple.xpc.launchd.oneshot.0x10000003.AppleSpell

       [running]   com.apple.xpc.launchd.oneshot.0x10000013.iTunesHelper

       [running]   com.apple.xpc.launchd.oneshot.0x10000025.EtreCheck

       [running]   com.getdropbox.dropbox.6112

     

    Internet Plug-ins: (What does this mean?)

       FlashPlayer-10.6: Version: 19.0.0.226 - SDK 10.6 [Click for support]

       QuickTime Plugin: Version: 7.7.3

       Flash Player: Version: 19.0.0.226 - SDK 10.6 [Click for support]

       Default Browser: Version: 601 - SDK 10.11

       SharePointBrowserPlugin: Version: 14.5.1 - SDK 10.6 [Click for support]

       Silverlight: Version: 5.1.40813.0 - SDK 10.6 [Click for support]

       JavaAppletPlugin: Version: 15.0.1 - SDK 10.7 Check version

     

    3rd Party Preference Panes: (What does this mean?)

       Flash Player [Click for support]

       Growl [Click for support]

     

    Time Machine: (What does this mean?)

       Time Machine not configured!

     

    Top Processes by CPU: (What does this mean?)

           19%   Finder

            8%   WindowServer

            5%   Little Snitch Daemon

            3%   hidd

            3%   Dropbox

     

    Top Processes by Memory: (What does this mean?)

       1.30 GB   kernel_task

       492 MB   mds_stores

       442 MB   softwareupdated

       360 MB   iTunes

       344 MB   Mail

     

    Virtual Memory Information: (What does this mean?)

       7.58 GB   Free RAM

       8.41 GB   Used RAM (3.67 GB Cached)

       308 MB   Swap Used

     

    Diagnostics Information: (What does this mean?)

       Nov 5, 2015, 11:41:58 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-05-114158_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 5, 2015, 11:08:46 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-05-110846_[redacted].cpu_resource .diag [Click for details]

       Nov 5, 2015, 10:43:15 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-05-104315_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 5, 2015, 10:22:20 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-05-102220_[redacted].hang

       Nov 5, 2015, 10:21:15 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-05-102115_[redacted].cpu_resource .diag [Click for details]

       Nov 5, 2015, 06:50:45 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-05-065045_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 5, 2015, 05:52:02 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-05-055202_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 5, 2015, 04:53:19 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-05-045319_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 5, 2015, 03:54:36 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-05-035436_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 5, 2015, 02:55:54 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-05-025554_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 5, 2015, 01:57:13 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-05-015713_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 5, 2015, 12:58:30 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-05-005830_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 11:59:47 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-235947_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 11:01:04 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-230104_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 10:02:21 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-220221_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 09:03:38 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-210338_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 06:19:15 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-181915_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 05:20:32 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-172032_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 04:21:49 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-162149_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 03:23:06 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-152306_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 02:35:31 PM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-04-143531_[redacted].cpu_resource .diag [Click for details]

       Nov 4, 2015, 02:24:23 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-142423_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 01:25:40 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-132540_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 12:26:57 PM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/GoogleSoftwareUpdateAgent_2015-11-04-122657_[re dacted].crash

       Nov 4, 2015, 11:21:12 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-04-112112_[redacted].cpu_resource .diag [Click for details]

       Nov 3, 2015, 01:12:41 PM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-03-131241_[redacted].cpu_resource .diag [Click for details]

       Nov 3, 2015, 11:59:55 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-03-115955_[redacted].cpu_resource .diag [Click for details]

       Nov 3, 2015, 11:58:08 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-03-115808_[redacted].hang

       Nov 3, 2015, 11:16:45 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-03-111645_[redacted].cpu_resource .diag [Click for details]

       Nov 3, 2015, 11:14:29 AM   Self test - passed

       Nov 3, 2015, 10:38:08 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-03-103808_[redacted].cpu_resource .diag [Click for details]

       Nov 3, 2015, 10:34:56 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-03-103456_[redacted].hang

       Nov 3, 2015, 09:57:55 AM   ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/Adobe Photoshop CS5_2015-11-03-095755_[redacted].crash

       Nov 2, 2015, 03:49:55 PM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/iTunes_2015-11-02-154955_[redacted].cpu_resource .diag [Click for details]

       Oct 30, 2015, 10:31:34 AM   /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/Kernel_2015-10-30-103134_[redacted].panic [Click for details]


  • by etresoft,

    etresoft etresoft Nov 6, 2015 9:47 PM in response to Chris Bello
    Level 7 (29,298 points)
    Mac OS X
    Nov 6, 2015 9:47 PM in response to Chris Bello

    Hello again Chris,

    First of all, you have some "clean up" software installed. I suggest removing that. Your Mac doesn't need anything cleaned up.

     

    I also see that you have Little Snitch installed. Plus, your Google software updater is crashing. Try turning off Little Snitch and see how iTunes behaves.

     

    Also, your iTunes "cpu_resource" diagnostic files have some details available. Click the "[Click for details]" link in your EtreCheck report for one of them and post the contents.

  • by Chris Bello,

    Chris Bello Chris Bello Nov 9, 2015 1:55 PM in response to etresoft
    Level 1 (11 points)
    Nov 9, 2015 1:55 PM in response to etresoft

    Thanks for the note.

     

    What clean up software do you see installed? I attempted to add Clean My Mac at one point, tried to delete and thought it was gone. Can't recall what else I might've installed along the way. I do recall a moment where I thought I had a malware issue and might've panicked.


    I've disabled Little Snitch. No impact on the overall speed of iTunes. Figured out how to deal with the Google software updated, removed necessary files (that Google installed.)

     

    Should be noted that both of these were rolling for months and iTunes issues only began with recent updates. Prior to that, nothing resembling this train wreck I'm dealing with now. CPU% shooting to 100+ every time I perform any type of action within iTunes.

     

    Regarding the "cpu_resource" diagnostic files, which files specifically? Also, can you tell me what all these "invalid signatures" are and if they might have anything to do with these issues?

  • by etresoft,

    etresoft etresoft Nov 9, 2015 2:18 PM in response to Chris Bello
    Level 7 (29,298 points)
    Mac OS X
    Nov 9, 2015 2:18 PM in response to Chris Bello

    Hello again Chris,

    As far as I can tell, you were successful in your attempt to add CleanMyMac, but were unsuccessful in your attempt to remove it. Always use vendor-provided uninstallers or uninstallation instructions. Never use an "app zapper". Never try to delete files in hidden directories by hand. Once this step is complete, look at your iTunes performance again.

     

    Regarding the "cpu_resource" diagnostic files, I am referring to the iTunes ones. You have a number of them. Just confirm that you have removed the "clean up" software and re-tested first.

     

    The "invalid signature" items appear to be known failures. If you run EtreCheck with the default settings, you shouldn't see them anymore.

  • by Cosmic Rocker,

    Cosmic Rocker Cosmic Rocker Nov 9, 2015 2:32 PM in response to etresoft
    Level 1 (4 points)
    iTunes
    Nov 9, 2015 2:32 PM in response to etresoft

    Couldn't agree more that the Apple Support people will continue to totally deny that there is ANYTHING wrong with iTunes 12.3.1 but we all know there is. Surely they are working on it but let me tell you what all this has cost me.  I have/or had 49,000 plus songs in my iTunes library.  When I started talking to Apple Support last week over the slowness I had not checked this forum and lord I wish I had before calling them.  They had me doing so many different things and none worked but in doing so I loss for 6,000 of my songs due to something they had me try.  It had to do with downloading El Capitan, pulling my iTunes Library.xml and my iTunes Library.it out on the desktop.  Then had me re-download iTunes and then it's foggy as to what happen but somehow it doubled the size of my storage space on my iMac and when I left it rebuilding the library overnight - it maxed out my space and couldn't download all my music. It's gone. It screws up my TimeMachine backup drive also - so I did NOT have an older backup to restore from. Disaster does not describe how I feel.

    Now I have an old iPod Classic which contains a lot of these missing songs.  Isn't there a way to change it to a hard drive and download the songs to an external drive and then back into my iTunes?  Seems like I recall this from many years ago but I know better than to ask Apple how to do it.  But I'm asking you guys - I also have two newer iPod Touch with many of the songs.  Can they be done the same way to get my songs back??  I know they don't want this to be possible because you could then share your library with someone else - heaven forbid.