bobseufert

Q: We're back.

Si what do you think if the update ?

Posted on Jun 9, 2016 1:44 AM

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Q: We're back.

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  • by Limnos,

    Limnos Limnos Jun 16, 2016 8:34 AM in response to Diana.McCall
    Level 9 (54,316 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jun 16, 2016 8:34 AM in response to Diana.McCall

    There's a number of style sheets out there for various computer based browsers.  I use one for Firefox that reduces the margin white space, uses a smaller and more readable font, tightens up the line spacing, put a box around and faintly colors the posts so you can easily tell where they start and end, automatically removes the reply dropdown, automatically displays the rest of the posts (more), colors the helpful and solved replies, more...

     

    Some basic elements can be found in the user document Minimal CSS tweaks for ASC

     

    Of course it is somewhat silly that probably hundreds of helper hours have gone into basically trying to undo what Apple did but I guess in a quarter century of using Apple products that has been the norm for me.  Unfortunately in the past decade years it really has been a case of they giveth a handful and taketh away a handful and a half with each change in software.  I guess the higher-ups just don't realize that many users would prefer seeing tweaks and adding features to a familiar interface than being slapped in the face with a brand new unfamiliar design every year or so that removes things to which they have become accustomed.

  • by ChitlinsCC,

    ChitlinsCC ChitlinsCC Jun 16, 2016 1:22 PM in response to dianeoforegon
    Level 5 (7,893 points)
    Notebooks
    Jun 16, 2016 1:22 PM in response to dianeoforegon

    dianeoforegon wrote:

     

    Trying to design the forums so users can find answers is assuming that users will even try to find an answer first. I've seen on the Microsoft forums a user ask the same question that showed up answered just a few moments earlier with the answer in the recent posts page. They didn't even bother looking at the post. There are a few questions I know I answered hundreds of times over the years because no one ever bothered to search for the answer. Yes, you can call me pessimistic, but it's also a reality.

     

    Designing the forums to make it easier for the contributors to answer should be a high priority. Most of us have other jobs and want to use our time wisely when volunteering our time on forums to help users. If it takes me two to three times as long to answer a question then my time is not well spent. There are other forums that make it easy for me to help and I end up going there.

     

    Users that ask questions need the volunteers to answer their questions. It's not a one way street.

     

    Biggest complaint is font size and spacing along with the light colored font. I'm seeing this light color on many other sites as well. Designers should get a clue. It's not readable.

    Commandments of Best Practice Interactive Software Design - The User eXperience (UX Design)

    Best PracticeActualApple's
    Discover your Target AudienceHelpers & HelpeesDeveloper's "Boss" at Apple
    Discover Target Audience needsOnly discoverable by "focus group" activity involving actual users - veteran and novicePretty picture of a page laying on a table with the "Boss" standing beside the table
    Design application that meets target audience needsTest with "focus group" participants - Get feedback

    Do what I asked for in the beginning... make it look like front line Apple Support pages - "match" what we already decided we want

    Remake to the new requirements discoveredTest again - get feedbackDeliver what was asked for by the Boss(es)
    Repeat as necessaryDittoDitto
  • by Diana.McCall,

    Diana.McCall Diana.McCall Jun 16, 2016 3:03 PM in response to ChitlinsCC
    Level 5 (4,220 points)
    Apple TV
    Jun 16, 2016 3:03 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

    Oh my, CCC. I'm glad I caught your post before it went poof! Very well put, but hopless, I fear.

  • by ChitlinsCC,

    ChitlinsCC ChitlinsCC Jun 16, 2016 3:18 PM in response to Diana.McCall
    Level 5 (7,893 points)
    Notebooks
    Jun 16, 2016 3:18 PM in response to Diana.McCall

     

    Did you mean "hopEless" or "hApless"?

     

    I know for a fact that the forum pages are designed to "match" the "main" Apple Support pages' design = several Apple sources

     

    THUSLY

    screenshot-support apple com 2016-06-16 17-09-39.pngscreenshot-discussions apple com 2016-06-16 17-14-51.png

  • by Diana.McCall,

    Diana.McCall Diana.McCall Jun 16, 2016 3:46 PM in response to ChitlinsCC
    Level 5 (4,220 points)
    Apple TV
    Jun 16, 2016 3:46 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

    Matching other Apple support sites explains the pervasive space+1/2 line spacing. But the selected font size is only used in the support pages for "announcement" text, actual details, like the WiFi page linked from the iPad page you posted use a size much closer to the old site. So it makes no sense to default to the large size, and spacing, for user-entered text. So they've done a poor job of matching. (Please ignore me, I'm just observing.)

  • by ChitlinsCC,

    ChitlinsCC ChitlinsCC Jun 16, 2016 4:27 PM in response to Diana.McCall
    Level 5 (7,893 points)
    Notebooks
    Jun 16, 2016 4:27 PM in response to Diana.McCall

    You're absolutely right, methinks

     

    Here is the KICKER...

    • Apple Support pages are meant to READ (and choices MADE) by whomever visits to merely get information
    • ASC pages are supposed to be USED BY US to HELP folks (or GET help as the case may be)

    The two are MUTUALLY Exclusive in FUNCTION - and "target audience" is very likely VERY different groups of folk

  • by bobseufert,

    bobseufert bobseufert Jun 16, 2016 6:15 PM in response to Diana.McCall
    Level 6 (13,988 points)
    iPad
    Jun 16, 2016 6:15 PM in response to Diana.McCall

    Diana.McCall wrote:

    Since the last update date can be set back to the last retained post, maybe the internal update time that determines the list order should be reset also.

     

    I checked on this when we were getting all the Zombie threads. Unfortunately there is no mechanism to restore the time line. Your best defence is to check the amount of view and replys before opening a thread. If you ever see 4 or 5 posts in a row with high view/replys it often means someone is spamming or phishing.

  • by bobseufert,

    bobseufert bobseufert Jun 16, 2016 6:40 PM in response to ChitlinsCC
    Level 6 (13,988 points)
    iPad
    Jun 16, 2016 6:40 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

    • The big reveal. Don't overlook the elephant in the room. The Forum is not for the helpers/helpees or for someone just looking for an answer. The Forum is a marketing tool for Apple, brand advocacy or something like that. It keeps the geezers like me involved with their Apple products and it helps the noobs learn how to use theirs. It was all spelt out in the help wanteds you posted. What Apple decides the Forum should look like trumps anything we say or do. Knowing this lies the greatest oppertunity for change. We find out what's do-able and what's written in stone and try to work with the hosts to improve ASC.


  • by ChitlinsCC,

    ChitlinsCC ChitlinsCC Jun 16, 2016 7:55 PM in response to bobseufert
    Level 5 (7,893 points)
    Notebooks
    Jun 16, 2016 7:55 PM in response to bobseufert

    Two words " Sun Tzu " - or three... " call avoidance system " (addressing two of your points)

     

    It is clear from "V's" statement saying so (and the presentation from others) that "matching" the "front end" is the tantamount design sensibility. They Said So.


    See what is " NEXT To LAST "

    new-blank.png

  • by dianeoforegon,

    dianeoforegon dianeoforegon Jun 17, 2016 9:32 AM in response to bobseufert
    Level 5 (5,724 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jun 17, 2016 9:32 AM in response to bobseufert

    You also need to look at the formatting of the emails users receive when following a post. Check out this example:

     

    emailforforum.png

  • by Diana.McCall,

    Diana.McCall Diana.McCall Jun 17, 2016 9:49 AM in response to bobseufert
    Level 5 (4,220 points)
    Apple TV
    Jun 17, 2016 9:49 AM in response to bobseufert

    OK, so Apple wants ASC to look like the other help pages. So why does it not? Why is the body font size in classes j-original-message and j-inresponse-to 22 px, line height 1.4 em, when the body in Get help with AirPlay and AirPlay Mirroring on your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch - Apple Support is 18 px, height 1.45 em? The font and unreadable color are taken from the standard style, but the sizes and layout are all over the map. Personally, I find the sans font and extra spacing hamper readability, but they look good, I suppose. I could provide a sheaf of useful markup that would enhance the user experience without diverging from the reference style. So could any one of the posters here, I'm sure.

    So, my plea is that they make the sizes more consistent with the standard, and restore some of the GUI features that were dropped arbitrarily, like goto first/last post, not just page.

    BTW Bob, your bold posts look pretty scary when they arrive in email.

    And why does the screen always scroll to the bottom when I paste something? This is confusing when replying to a post other than the last. But it's always been like that, so it's OK.

  • by Diana.McCall,

    Diana.McCall Diana.McCall Jun 17, 2016 9:50 AM in response to Diana.McCall
    Level 5 (4,220 points)
    Apple TV
    Jun 17, 2016 9:50 AM in response to Diana.McCall

    Well, oops. The top of my last post was created in  iOS Notes, with no particular style, and it came out extra tiny. Sorry.

  • by Limnos,

    Limnos Limnos Jun 17, 2016 9:53 AM in response to Diana.McCall
    Level 9 (54,316 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jun 17, 2016 9:53 AM in response to Diana.McCall

    Did you try using a CSS?  I guess a bunch of people are not because they want to wait for Apple to reverse its decisions. Good luck.

  • by Diana.McCall,

    Diana.McCall Diana.McCall Jun 17, 2016 10:15 AM in response to Limnos
    Level 5 (4,220 points)
    Apple TV
    Jun 17, 2016 10:15 AM in response to Limnos

    Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think I can do that on iPad. And besides, why should users have to cook up work-arounds to fix basic design flaws?  Those work-arounds are of no help to new users looking for solutions. What they see is exactly what the site provides, which could certainly use some fixing up. Finally, no amount of CSS can fix the GUI shortcomings. I don't care if they fix it, I'd just like anyone to realize that there's some more work to be done on this revision.

  • by seventy one,

    seventy one seventy one Jun 17, 2016 10:23 AM in response to Diana.McCall
    Level 6 (15,185 points)
    Peripherals
    Jun 17, 2016 10:23 AM in response to Diana.McCall

    That is exactly my view.   Indeed, had they bothered to run it by us in the first place we may have resolved many of these problems before the launch.   How can these people be so devoid of logic.  

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