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slobizman

Q: Question on replacing wonky old-style Airport Extreme

I have an old Airport Extreme, probably about 8 years old.   It seems to have gone wonky on me.  I've tried everything including resetting to factory defaults.  Anyway, the point is I need to replace the unit.  However, it is mounted into a wall unit electrical box, which is not deep enough to hold the new style "vertical" Airport Extreme that is meant to sit on a desk. It's about an inch too wide.  This new design really ***** for my situation.

 

So, I'm stuck with a choice of replacing it with another used (or I think some are still boxed on Amazon) old-style Airport Extreme, or with another brand unit that does the same thing.  Of course I'd rather stay with Apple, as all my Airport Expresses, my Airport Time Capsule and all our devices are Apple.

 

Which is the best choice?

Posted on Jul 17, 2016 9:06 AM

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Q: Question on replacing wonky old-style Airport Extreme

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  • by Rysz,Helpful

    Rysz Rysz Jul 17, 2016 9:34 AM in response to slobizman
    Level 7 (20,519 points)
    iTunes
    Jul 17, 2016 9:34 AM in response to slobizman

    There's a third choice: install the new unit somewhere other than in a shielded, metal electrical box. That's not a good location for any wireless device.

  • by Tesserax,Helpful

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 17, 2016 10:02 AM in response to slobizman
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 17, 2016 10:02 AM in response to slobizman

    Since size is an issue, the "best" choice if sticking with Apple is to get a 5th generation AirPort Extreme, model A1408. Amazon has them, along with a number of other vendors.

     

    However, you may want to consider that if you are placing a wireless router in a confined area, you may want to use a non-wireless one instead. I would suggest Cisco routers. FWIW, I use a Cisco RV180 as my "main" router that is installed in an electrical panel with the Internet modem. It feeds into a Ethernet panel that, in turn, provides Ethernet connections throughout my home. My other routers are all Apple and provide my home with wireless. Amazon has these as well.

  • by slobizman,

    slobizman slobizman Jul 17, 2016 9:54 AM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (12 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 17, 2016 9:54 AM in response to Tesserax

    Duh! I never thought of that. Thank you.  So, let me try to put in my words what I think I should do, and if you could please tell me that I am properly understanding this (networking is not one of my strong points).

     

    I've attached a photo of the wall unit that houses the equipment. I've got a cable modem, which then attaches to my Airport Extreme, and the Airport Extreme provides wireless from there and also connects to my Netgear Switch, which provides internet to various wall jacks around the house. 

     

    So, what you are saying is to replace the Airport Extreme with something like the Cisco RV180. And then at one or more of my cable jacks in the house, attach, what, Airport Express'?  Is that correct?

     

    The current Airport Express sits smack in the middle of my house, so the location is perfect.  I'd have to replace this with maybe 2-3 Airport Express' to blanket the house (unless they've gotten way more powerful since I last bought one maybe 4-5 years ago).

     

    Last question: Anything I should know on setting up a non-apple router in this setup?  Is it pretty much plug and play? Can I use Airport Express to manage it?

     

    Thanks so much for your help!

    IMG_2556.jpg

  • by slobizman,

    slobizman slobizman Jul 17, 2016 10:05 AM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (12 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 17, 2016 10:05 AM in response to Tesserax

    I just went looking at routers and it seems that about everyone is a wireless router. Is that how they all come now, and are those okay? Do I need to configure it to not do the wireless part? Or do I need to find a router that does not have the wireless component? 

     

    I was hoping to find one at Best Buy that I could just pick up today.

  • by Tesserax,Solvedanswer

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 17, 2016 10:11 AM in response to slobizman
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 17, 2016 10:11 AM in response to slobizman

    Your electrical panel setup looks very similar to mine and about as full.

    I've attached a photo of the wall unit that houses the equipment. I've got a cable modem, which then attaches to my Airport Extreme, and the Airport Extreme provides wireless from there and also connects to my Netgear Switch, which provides internet to various wall jacks around the house.

    In my case, my Internet is via Microwave and ISP's modem is in the panel. It is directly connected to the Cisco RV180. In turn, the Cisco is connected to a Cisco 8-port Ethernet switch. A number of Ethernet patch cables are connected between the switch and a Ethernet patch panel with runs throughout the house ... so very similar to your setup.

    So, what you are saying is to replace the Airport Extreme with something like the Cisco RV180. And then at one or more of my cable jacks in the house, attach, what, Airport Express'?  Is that correct?

    Yes, that is correct. In my case I have two Time Capsules and a single AirPort Extreme that are connected to Ethernet wall ports in specific rooms to maximize my wireless connectivity throughout the house. The whole network is configured for a roaming type. This allow wireless clients to connect to a "single" Wi-Fi network as they literally roam from room to room. The two major advantages of this type of network configuration are:

    1. The best possible overall bandwidth for a wireless network.
    2. You can use mixed manufacturers' equipment. You are not limited to Apple only gear.

    ... and, in your case, you can still use your AirPort Extreme for added wireless coverage if you wish.

    Last question: Anything I should know on setting up a non-apple router in this setup?  Is it pretty much plug and play? Can I use Airport Express to manage it?

    As with adding any new networking hardware, it is always a good idea to perform a complete power recycle of that equipment. The following is an AirPort User tip that I authored that will give you the step-by-step method in doing so.

     

    Unfortunately, you will not be able to administer the Cisco router (or whatever model you choose) with the AirPort Utility. It was designed for the AirPort base stations only.

     

    Most non-Apple routers use a web-based administrator interface. The good news is that this Cisco model is easy to set up and will require minimum changes to work in the roaming network. Most of the configuration changes would be to the AirPort base stations and even those will be minimal. We can help you with that if needed.

  • by slobizman,

    slobizman slobizman Jul 17, 2016 10:22 AM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (12 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 17, 2016 10:22 AM in response to Tesserax

    First of all, I can't tell you how grateful I am for you help.  Thank you.

     

    To circle back to the other choice (since it's easier ), is the 5th Gen Airport Extreme significantly lesser router in any way to the new ones?  I'm just thinking, I could spend the hundred bucks or less and get one to simply replace it. Even though it's in the metal case, which is not recommended I now understand, it still does provide me with wireless wherever I need it.  There is one spot in the house where it is a little iffy, and I can just add an Airport Express there if need be.

  • by Tesserax,

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 17, 2016 10:22 AM in response to slobizman
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 17, 2016 10:22 AM in response to slobizman

    The Amazon link is for a non-wireless Cisco RV180 router. Cisco also has a few other non-wireless ones as well as the RV180 is an older model. These would be the RV130, RV320, & RV325 models. These are all designed around supporting small businesses, but work very well for serious home-based situations where security and flexibility are important considerations.

     

    Again, there are others out there to compare against. I am not affiliated with Cisco in any way other than being a consumer of their products, but have extensive background with their equipment from my work experience.

     

    For an unbiased review of numerous routers, I would suggest that your visit the SmallNetBuilder's website where they have done extensive router reviews with comparison tables.

  • by Tesserax,

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 17, 2016 10:30 AM in response to slobizman
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 17, 2016 10:30 AM in response to slobizman

    To circle back to the other choice (since it's easier ), is the 5th Gen Airport Extreme significantly lesser router in any way to the new ones?

    Actually, it is. It came out in 2011 and was discontinued by Apple in mid-2013. A lot has changed in networking since then. Try the SmallNetBuilder link I provided you in my other response to get an idea of how much has changed, especially performance-wise.

     

    Regardless, it is always a bad idea to place a wireless router inside a closed space ... especially one that is all metal. Why? Because of two basic reasons:

    1. The base station will attempt to operate its wireless radios at full strength to overcome any Wi-Fi resistance it detects ... like the metal walls of the electrical panel.
    2. Poor air circulation, even with the panel door open ... and with it open you expose the electronic devices to whatever air contaminants are present in the area. Dust, pet hairs, etc.
  • by slobizman,

    slobizman slobizman Jul 17, 2016 11:00 AM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (12 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 17, 2016 11:00 AM in response to Tesserax

    Okay, you've convinced me to get a non-Apple replacement.  I see I can get a new RV320 at NewEgg for $155.  I see it's ranked #2 on SmallNetBuilder, second to a Ubiquiti router whose setup sounds too techy for me. 

     

    So, with the RV320, is it just a matter of swapping the Extreme with it and turning it on (and doing the rebooting stuff of all the other equipment)? Or will there be much of a setup?  And if I need to go in and set it up, initially, will I need to connect a computer directly to it via ethernet? Or will I bet able to do it from a  computer already connected somewhere on the network to my switch? I ask this because the Macbooks I have that I can move closely to it, when set up in the wall box, don't have ethernet ports.

     

    Thanks again!

  • by Tesserax,

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 17, 2016 11:21 AM in response to slobizman
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 17, 2016 11:21 AM in response to slobizman

    So, with the RV320, is it just a matter of swapping the Extreme with it and turning it on (and doing the rebooting stuff of all the other equipment)? Or will there be much of a setup?

    Any time you change networking hardware, there is unfortunately, some initial setup involved. It will also depend on how you currently have your AirPort base stations configured. For example are they already configured for a roaming network with the Extreme as your "main" router and the Express as one of your roaming "satellite" base stations? If so, the Express is already properly configured and shouldn't require any configuration changes.

     

    On the other hand, by default, the RV320 will provide IP addresses in the 192.168.x.x for the local network. This is different than what the Extreme was providing which defaults to the 10.0.x.x range ... so with the just the Cisco operating any Mac connected to it directly will get one of these addresses in this new range. No biggie and shouldn't pose a problem. Just letting you know.

     

    Out of the box, the Cisco shouldn't require any configuration changes either ... so pretty much "plug and play." The Express should get the new IP address from the Cisco when it is powered-up. Again, if the Express is already configured for roaming network, then it shouldn't require any configuration changes either.

     

    Now for your AirPort Extreme. If you decide you wish to continue to use it as part of the roaming network, it will require some setup to work properly. Let us know and we can provide you with the steps to do so.

  • by slobizman,

    slobizman slobizman Jul 17, 2016 11:59 AM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (12 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 17, 2016 11:59 AM in response to Tesserax

    I just thought of another idea.  When I say my Extreme has gone wonky, it's just the wireless part that intermittently goes out.  So my macbooks have problems, but my wife's iMac is connected via Ethernet and it does not have the problem.

     

    So...I just had the thought that, at least for now, I could, via Airport Utility, set the Network Mode to Off rather than Create a Wireless Network. And then buy a new model Airport Extreme and plug it into the network via an ethernet jack (not in the wall box, but at a convenient location where there is a wall jack). 

     

    Would this work? Could it really as simple as that?

     

    (Actually, could I just use one or more Airport Express' instead of adding the Airport Extreme? Can I create a wireless network from a Airport Express? But even if I can, maybe their range is less...)

  • by Tesserax,

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 17, 2016 12:42 PM in response to slobizman
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 17, 2016 12:42 PM in response to slobizman

    So...I just had the thought that, at least for now, I could, via Airport Utility, set the Network Mode to Off rather than Create a Wireless Network. And then buy a new model Airport Extreme and plug it into the network via an ethernet jack (not in the wall box, but at a convenient location where there is a wall jack).

     

    Would this work? Could it really as simple as that?

    Yes, and yes!

    (Actually, could I just use one or more Airport Express' instead of adding the Airport Extreme? Can I create a wireless network from a Airport Express? But even if I can, maybe their range is less...)

    The biggest drawback with the AirPort Express is its Ethernet ports. That is, they only support up to 100 Mbps; whereas, the Extreme or Time Capsule employ 1000 Mbps ports ... so this would be a significant disadvantage for each of your remote base stations.

     

    If you are going this route, then may I suggest that you leave the existing Extreme where it is (as you suggested) and get the newer 802.11ac AirPort Extremes for every location that you want to provide wireless coverage. I know that this would be more costly, but the newest models have much superior power (1000+ vs. 100+ mW) and antenna design (6 vs. 2) over the Express.

  • by slobizman,

    slobizman slobizman Jul 17, 2016 1:07 PM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (12 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 17, 2016 1:07 PM in response to Tesserax

    "Yes, and yes!"

     

    Alright! That sounds great. And if my current Extreme eventually dies completely I could still use the new Extreme somewhere.

     

    One last question (I hope, for your sake!), to get more nuanced on this angle: Since my current Extreme's wireless still works let's say 98% of the time, could I also, instead, do the following:

     

    - leave the old Extreme's wireless set to on

    - plug the new Extreme into the wired network and set it to join the existing wireless network

     

    I'm wondering, if when I'm in range of the new Extreme (which will be most of the time) will I be picking up the signal from it, negating/ignoring the on and off signal from the old Extreme?  Or will the old Extreme's lack of signal/bad signal  somehow disrupt the new Extreme's good signal? Or if I'm closest to the old Extreme and it drops the signal, will it switch over to the new Extreme's signal if in range?

  • by Tesserax,

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 17, 2016 1:19 PM in response to slobizman
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 17, 2016 1:19 PM in response to slobizman

    No problem ask as many questions as you like.

    One last question (I hope, for your sake!), to get more nuanced on this angle: Since my current Extreme's wireless still works let's say 98% of the time, could I also, instead, do the following:

     

    - leave the old Extreme's wireless set to on

    - plug the new Extreme into the wired network and set it to join the existing wireless network

    You could do the first item but, again, it would be transmitting inside a metal box. Not very efficient.

     

    On the second item, the answer would be no. That is because, there are actually two ways that you can extend a wireless network with Apple base stations:

    1. By wireless connection between base stations. This is what the "Extend an existing wireless network" option is all about. This type of network has the least overall bandwidth performance and will only work with all Apple products.
    2. By a wired connection between base stations. This is the roaming type network. Each base station would be configured to "Create a wireless network," but since each will use the same network name they will appear as a single network to wireless clients. This has the best overall bandwidth performance and is commonly used in business and universities for wireless coverage.

    The newer AirPort Extremes or Time Capsules do not have an option to "Join a existing wireless network" like the Express base stations do.

    I'm wondering, if when I'm in range of the new Extreme (which will be most of the time) will I be picking up the signal from it, negating/ignoring the on and off signal from the old Extreme?  Or will the old Extreme's lack of signal/bad signal  somehow disrupt the new Extreme's good signal? Or if I'm closest to the old Extreme and it drops the signal, will it switch over to the new Extreme's signal if in range?

    These are great questions ... and the answer will depend on the type of device connecting to a roaming network. Mac laptops have a much easier time connecting to the base station with the strongest signal when roaming. This is not the case, unfortunately, with iOS devices which tend to "stick" to the first station it connects to. The "solution" for iOS devices is to go into and out of AirPlane mode to "force" it to connect to the base station with the stronger signal.

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