bbaker80

Q: Multiple Airport Extreme Bases in 25,000sq location

I have installed (with initial support from Apple) 17 Airport Extreme Base locations in a massive estate to cover seamless wireless internet from corner to corner coverage. After the install (with 1 initial base, the others were extended), they started to fail one by one. Obviously when the primary base loses internet they all will. So I decided to hard wire a few of them and call Apple for more support. This time Apple stuck with their word that "only 3 units in a chain are supported and we cannot help you with any other". Although someone in engineering helped me when I planned this installation and said they had 14 at one location and would help if we needed. Bottom line they are no longer available and im stuck with a network that drops 75% of the time with use of 5 mins or more per device. Although every device does connect, they fail.. I have since removed from 17 to stations to 12 and have 4 hard wire units that have 3 wireless units on each and I am STILL losing the internet. I have a business strength ISP connection and the traffic is light. My questions are:

 

1 - Is the primary Base taking too much traffic?

     a - If so, to relieve some should I add a switch to disperse some bandwidth?

 

2 - Any idea's to fix what I have or add any additional devices to make this network more stable?

 

Thank you in advance!

Brian

Airport Extreme Base Station

Posted on Jul 25, 2016 8:56 AM

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Q: Multiple Airport Extreme Bases in 25,000sq location

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  • by Tesserax,

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 25, 2016 10:56 AM in response to bbaker80
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 10:56 AM in response to bbaker80

    Just to be sure I understand your current network configuration with all of these base stations ...

     

    Are the all 802.11ac AirPort Extreme base stations?

     

    Are they, assuming that the "main" base station is connected directly to the Internet modem, by Ethernet:

    1. All interconnected by Ethernet in a roaming type network?
    2. All interconnected by wireless in an extended type network?
    3. Some connected by Ethernet and some by wireless?

     

    Ideally, in a network configuration to cover this amount of area, they should be configured for a roaming network. This is typically how they would be set up in a business or educational institution.

     

    There are other things to take into consideration as well, but I would need to know the basic network setup first.

  • by bbaker80,

    bbaker80 bbaker80 Jul 25, 2016 11:12 AM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 11:12 AM in response to Tesserax

    Thank you for the response..

     

    I have 12 Airport Extreme units and 2 airport express (just because I had them).

     

    They are all connected in a mix Wireless/Ethernet extended type network.

     

    I have all of them running to the 1 Airport Extreme from directly to the modem.

     

    So I need to look into reconnecting them to a roaming network? Is this an easy fix once everything is established on an extended network? Also, is there any security issues?

     

    Thank you again!

    Brian

  • by Bob Timmons,Helpful

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Jul 25, 2016 11:58 AM in response to bbaker80
    Level 10 (105,079 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 11:58 AM in response to bbaker80

    Your setup is really nothing like most home network installations, and is much more of a scope of something that might be found in a business or commercial installation.  Fair to say, I think that a 25K square foot home is not exactly typical.

     

    I might be able to help on recommending the proper way to use the products that you have, which might improve the chances of your network working more reliably. Unfortunately, if Apple won't officially support a network with more than 3 AirPorts or access points, as you indicate, then you will be pretty much on your own.

     

    Specifically, I was asked a few months ago to help fix the network at my grandson's school, which was installed and setup last year by another individual. There is a "main" Apple AirPort Extreme router there to run the network and 12 AirPort Express devices installed.....one each in 12 different classrooms to provide wireless Internet access.  After I repaired some Ethernet cables and connections, and reprogrammed the entire network, the school was very happy with how well the wireless works.....(especially since they paid nothing for my repairs and labor).

     

    So, the school network looks like this:

     

    Internet Connection from ISP > modem > AirPort Extreme > 16 port Ethernet switch > 12 AirPort Express devices. In other words, each of the 12 AirPort Express devices connect back to the Ethernet switch using a permanent, wired Ethernet cable connection.

     

    Your network will need to be setup the same way. Is that a possibility?

  • by Tesserax,Helpful

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 25, 2016 11:58 AM in response to bbaker80
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 11:58 AM in response to bbaker80

    I have 12 Airport Extreme units and 2 airport express (just because I had them).

    Unless you really need the wireless coverage, I would suggest leaving the two Express base stations out of your overall network configuration for the time being for two reasons:

    1. Inferior antenna design compared to the Extreme base stations, and
    2. 100 Mbps only Ethernet ports compared to 1000 Mbps ports on the Extremes.

    They are all connected in a mix Wireless/Ethernet extended type network.

    ... and why, most likely, you are experiencing issues at this time. For extending by wireless connections, it is important to understand how the Apple routers work.

     

    We are going to use a wagon wheel analogy. The "main" base station would be at the hub of this wheel with each extending base station located along one of the spokes. From this simple image, you can see that all extending base stations can only extend the "main" one. They cannot extend in a series fashion. That is, if base station B is extending base station A, base station C cannot extend base station B. Instead C will try to extend A as well. This becomes problematic if the distance between A & C becomes so great that the signal being extended has little or no bandwidth to repeat.

     

    This is something a network "Engineer" would have informed you about.

    I have all of them running to the 1 Airport Extreme from directly to the modem.

    Although this will work, the AirPort base station does not have tremendous WAN-LAN data throughput compared to newer routers currently available today. Although it has 1000 Mbps Ethernet ports, you can only expect around 300-350 Mbps of throughput. Remember the current 802.11ac Extreme's design came in June of 2013. A lifetime in networking hardware.

     

    What I would suggest that you consider is to deploy your "main" Extreme as another Wireless Access Point in a roaming network. Replace it with a business-grade wired-only router which offers much better performance and more administrative control at your local network's entry point. I would further suggest routers by Cisco for this application. However, you can certainly stay with the Extreme for now to get your network "up and running."

    So I need to look into reconnecting them to a roaming network? Is this an easy fix once everything is established on an extended network?

    Yes, you will want to go with a roaming type network for best overall wireless coverage performance. The basics for this type of network are:

    • All base stations used, except the main one, will be reconfigured as bridges.
    • All base stations will broadcast a Wi-Fi network, but since all of them will use the same network name (aka, SSID), wireless encryption type and password, wireless network clients will see them as "one" network.
    • Each base station must have a unique base station name.
    • All base stations must be interconnected by Ethernet.

    Also, is there any security issues?

    There is really no difference in security between a roaming vs. a extended wireless network with Apple routers. You should employ a security strategy that includes using a strong password for the wireless network and change it every 30-90 days. You should also set a strong password for the base station's administrator's access via the AirPort Utility.

     

    The other thing to take into consideration is that if the router is physically accessible it can pose as a security risk. This is true of any manufacturer's device, not just Apple's.

  • by bbaker80,

    bbaker80 bbaker80 Jul 25, 2016 11:58 AM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 11:58 AM in response to Tesserax

    I like and appreciate your suggestions, however the reason for not all going ethernet is that I dont have wires (and cannot get) in certain areas so with that being said the 3 or 4 ethernet cables I had access to that went to the locations of other base stations I used them. In some instances the wireless units close to an ethernet base would extend that location instead of the base (because that wired unit is just an extension of the base anyway). So do you recommend me not using any ethernet or stick with what I have and just move from extending the network to roaming network? Also, I was told (by Apple) that Apple Airports only extend other Apple devices. So with a Cisco Router how would I get connectivity?

  • by bbaker80,

    bbaker80 bbaker80 Jul 25, 2016 12:01 PM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 12:01 PM in response to Bob Timmons

    Thank you for the response, however I don't have the option for an ethernet connection in all places. So I think the idea is to move the network configuration from the extended mode to roaming mode is the first thing to do. After that it seems like a switch or router would be the right thing to do, however I was told (by Apple) that Apple Airports only extend other Apple devices. So adding a router/switch wouldnt work unless it was Apple, right?

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Jul 25, 2016 12:01 PM in response to bbaker80
    Level 10 (105,079 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 12:01 PM in response to bbaker80

    Looks like Tesserax and I both responded about the same time by coincidence.  To avoid confusion,  and two discussions, I will let Tesserax answer questions, since he responded first.

  • by bbaker80,

    bbaker80 bbaker80 Jul 25, 2016 12:08 PM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 12:08 PM in response to Bob Timmons

    You are both giving me good information, I don't think there is any stepping on feet here. I will take as much information about this as possible from as many as I can.

     

    Thank you!

  • by Tesserax,

    Tesserax Tesserax Jul 25, 2016 12:21 PM in response to bbaker80
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 12:21 PM in response to bbaker80

    ...the reason for not all going ethernet is that I dont have wires (and cannot get) in certain areas so with that being said the 3 or 4 ethernet cables I had access to that went to the locations of other base stations I used them. In some instances the wireless units close to an ethernet base would extend that location instead of the base (because that wired unit is just an extension of the base anyway).

    ... and this would be a reasonable approach given the circumstances. However, even though they "should work," a hybrid configuration (wired and wireless connections between base stations) is not ideal and can be problematic in the long run ... as you can attest.

     

    For overall wireless bandwidth performance, this may be slightly better than an all wireless configuration, but no where as good as an all wired one. Also, you have increased the complexity of administrating this network a multi-fold ... and not one I would ever recommend except in a limited deployment of say 3-5 base stations at most.

    So do you recommend me not using any ethernet or stick with what I have and just move from extending the network to roaming network?

    If you only had 4-5 base stations, I would say all wireless would do, but not 12+. Yes, I am still recommending that you consider going with a roaming network with all wired connections. Bob has provided an example that worked for him ... but it will require that an Ethernet backbone be established first. In his scenario, that backbone was provided with a simple 16-port Ethernet switch and corresponding Ethernet data runs to each of the base station locations.

     

    I would strongly recommend that you contact a trusted electrician to give you a quote on getting this set up properly. You will be happier in the long run.

    Also, I was told (by Apple) that Apple Airports only extend other Apple devices. So with a Cisco Router how would I get connectivity?

    Ah, great question! That is true for wireless only extended networks. With a roaming network that uses all wired connections between base stations, you are not limited to only Apple products. You can pretty much "mix and match" other vendor products freely ... so, in this case, the Cisco router would not be an issue. Of course, this would add a bit to administrating individual stations as non-Apple products use a web-browser access to configure their routers; whereas, Apple uses the AirPort Utility.

     

    You may also find that you may want to consider using dedicated Wireless Access Points (WAPs), instead of "disabling" full-featured routers to be used for the same purpose. That is, replace the base stations with something like Cisco or Eero WAPs. Again, a network Engineer would have provided you with this option when you first started out getting this set up.

  • by bbaker80,

    bbaker80 bbaker80 Jul 25, 2016 12:54 PM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Wireless
    Jul 25, 2016 12:54 PM in response to Tesserax

    This information is fantastic and between both of you have given me excellent ideas. I do wish Apple would stand behind their product some more and have information like this more accessible, however I know the capabilities of this device and know that it can work. I should mention that this is NOT an installation I would ever do in any situation, however the end user has requested to see NO DEVICES OR ANTENNA'S.. This made my decision a bit harder on which units to chose given the size of the location, the lack of access to network paths and now the physical attributes of the units themselves. I was almost forced to use these units.

     

    Thank you again for this amazing help and I will be onsite later this week to try this out and let you know if this resolved my issue.

     

    Brian

  • by bbaker80,Solvedanswer

    bbaker80 bbaker80 Aug 1, 2016 6:54 AM in response to bbaker80
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Wireless
    Aug 1, 2016 6:54 AM in response to bbaker80

    I just wanted to add my resolution. With the help of you two I was able to combine the information you provided and make a solid work around.

     

    I bought an 8 port Gigabit un-managed switch and put it right after the modem and before the first Airport Extreme. Then I took every unit that was hard wired and moved them to the switch. I then put 3 or 4 of the wireless units as a secondary to the wired unit then made them all as new networks but with the same SSID. I have had no issue since and the strength is even better.

     

    Thank you again for everything!

     

    Brian