blackknife

Q: Installing Airport Extreme to Motorola gateway?

I was hoping someone may be able to help me go through the steps necessary to setup my new Airport Express base station (brand new) to a Motorola Surfboard SBG 6580 gateway (Cox is my ISP). My main machines are a mid 2010 21.5" iMac running OSX 10.8.5 and a mid 2010 15" MacBook Pro running OSX10.10.5

 

From the research I've done, I know I will need to turn off the wireless features on the gateway, and run an ethernet cable from one of the WAN ports on to the airport express. I'm just wondering if it's just a matter of going into my router settings, and turning off the wireless so I can just use it as a modem, or is there anything else I have to turn off while I'm in those settings?

 

I also have a Netgear wifi extender used in my current set up, but I'm hoping that I won't need that any longer once I set up the airport extreme, but if I did need it, would it even be compatible with the airport extreme?

 

Will I still be able to use the other WAN ethernet ports on the motorola once the airport extreme is set up? I ask because I currently use all 4 ports on the motorola, and the airport extreme only has 3.

 

Lastly, I'd like to use the same name as my current wifi network, will there be any issue with that, and will I be able to hide my network name as I currently do? I think it's a "do not broadcast" option currently so it doesn't come up for people scanning wireless networks

 

The devices that use my wifi are mostly Apple products except for an HTC smartphone, an Amazon Fire stick, and a smart TV. 

 

Thanks in advance for any help/advise

Jeff

MacBook Pro, OS X Yosemite (10.10.5), 15" mid 2010

Posted on Jan 16, 2016 11:35 AM

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Q: Installing Airport Extreme to Motorola gateway?

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  • by Tesserax,

    Tesserax Tesserax Jan 16, 2016 12:06 PM in response to blackknife
    Level 9 (54,452 points)
    Wireless
    Jan 16, 2016 12:06 PM in response to blackknife

    Unless you really need to disable the Gateway's wireless, you may find configuring your network a lot simpler by just setting them both up for a roaming type network.

     

    However, before considering this, it would help if we understood what your networking goals are for these devices. Also, would you please provide the exact model numbers for each of your AirPort base station that you intend to use in your network.

  • by LaPastenague,Solvedanswer

    LaPastenague LaPastenague Jan 23, 2016 11:22 AM in response to blackknife
    Level 9 (52,596 points)
    Wireless
    Jan 23, 2016 11:22 AM in response to blackknife
    know I will need to turn off the wireless features on the gateway

    No this is not necessary at all.. In fact keep using the Cox supplied gateway as is. There is nothing wrong with that setup.

     

    I'm just wondering if it's just a matter of going into my router settings, and turning off the wireless so I can just use it as a modem, or is there anything else I have to turn off while I'm in those settings?

    Just to make it clear.. changing the gateway to a bridge modem which is what your asking is far more complicated than shutting off wireless. And often the ISP have them setup so it is not even possible at your end. Forget it.. and just leave it alone.

     

    run an ethernet cable from one of the WAN ports on to the airport express.

    Yes, you will do this.. and setup the Express in bridge mode.. you will still use the main gateway as the router.

     

    Setup express to create a wireless network. Use a different name to the gateway.

    I do recommend names that are short, no spaces and pure alphanumeric.. do not accept the Apple Recommended Name in the setup utility.

     

    Passwords also follow the same rule but can be longer.. 3-10 characters for names.. 8-20 characters for passwords.. will be fine.

     

    I also have a Netgear wifi extender used in my current set up, but I'm hoping that I won't need that any longer once I set up the airport extreme, but if I did need it, would it even be compatible with the airport extreme?

    We suddenly changed from Express to Extreme..

     

    Edit Hmmm no the rest of the text now says Extreme.. and the title so the Express was the typo.

     

    The wifi extender is problematic. It is NOT 100% compatible.. although it may work as universal extender but this has implications.. Again if you have range issues you might still be better with the Netgear extending the Cox gateway.

     

    The Express is no wireless power house.. so its range is going to be fairly restricted.. as is its speed which is very limited due to using 100mbit ethernet.

    Edit... The Extreme is a lot better and obviously gigabit.

     

    Will I still be able to use the other WAN ethernet ports on the motorola once the airport extreme is set up? I ask because I currently use all 4 ports on the motorola, and the airport extreme only has 3.

    This is another nail in the coffin of bridging the cable modem router.. It would stop you using any ports on it except to connect the Extreme.. and now I think you are talking about extreme.. because express only has one wan and one lan.

     

    The Motorola will have only one wan port and 4 LAN ports.. again just to keep our terminology right. WAN is to the internet.. LAN is the local network.

     

    Lastly, I'd like to use the same name as my current wifi network, will there be any issue with that, and will I be able to hide my network name as I currently do? I think it's a "do not broadcast" option currently so it doesn't come up for people scanning wireless networks

    You can use same names.. in which case you will have no way to tell what is connected to what.. so I would much prefer to see you using a different name for the Extreme/Express whatever it is.

     

    If you are really wanting to get rid of the wireless on the Cox modem router.. then just turn off its wireless.. and use the Extreme. Do not bridge the cox modem.. if you want to use a bridged modem buy a pure modem that cox allows.. zoom is the recommended one with airports. NOT SB models.

     

    Do not bother with hiding the broadcast. There is no security in it at all.. People scanning can still see hidden networks.. in fact the people who will want to hack wireless find hidden broadcast no problem at all.. and it breaks the IEEE standard.. wireless was never designed to NOT broadcast. It does anyway even when hidden.. just not polling. The security is WPA2 Personal security with a decent password.. that is still unbreakable.. You are only causing yourself issues with hidden.. But you can ignore this and do it if you want.. it is there in the Airport utility to do it.

  • by blackknife,

    blackknife blackknife Jan 16, 2016 1:35 PM in response to LaPastenague
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 16, 2016 1:35 PM in response to LaPastenague

    Sorry, it IS in fact a brand new Extreme (not an express)....just a mistake, and I couldn't edit that post for whatever reason

     

    There are only 4 LAN ports, a power, and cable connection on the back of the Motorola Gateway, there is no WAN port on the SBG6580. The gateway is owned by me, it was not provided by my ISP, and I would prefer not to buy another modem since I recently bought this gateway less than a year ago, and had to go through Cox to have it activated which was a bit of a pain. I would also prefer to just use the Extreme for my wifi if it's not too much of a hassle.

     

    IMG_20160116_160156.jpg

     

    From some of the research I had done, I read that I would turn off the wireless, and NAPT?

     

    I think this is the page I got the info from, I'm not saying it's the way to go, just what I read:

    http://apocryphalcoder.blogspot.com/2011/04/howto-turn-motorola-surfboard-into-j ust.html

  • by LaPastenague,

    LaPastenague LaPastenague Jan 18, 2016 5:40 PM in response to blackknife
    Level 9 (52,596 points)
    Wireless
    Jan 18, 2016 5:40 PM in response to blackknife
    I would also prefer to just use the Extreme for my wifi if it's not too much of a hassle.

    This is easy peasy..

     

    Do nothing to the SB modem router..

     

    Everything you have read has to do with bridging it.. but you have stated that is NOT what you want to do.. You want to bridge the Extreme and use it just for wifi.

     

    So.. open the airport utility.

     

    Plug the Airport Extreme WAN port (sunburst symbol).. into a LAN port on the SB modem.

     

    Run the setup wizard under top left box that says, Other WiFi device (1)

    The bracket (1) indicating you now have a new device to setup.

     

    Apple wizard will detect it is plugged into a modem router and SHOULD.. select bridge mode and wireless.. don't over worry about what it selects.. fix it up at the end.

     

    Finish the wizard. The AE will then appear in the utility. Click it to bring up the summary page.. and click edit.

     

    smallsummaryelcrapoold.pngf

     

    Now you can go to each tab to ensure it has the correct settings. eg bridge.

     

    bridgevAU6.png

     

    And the wireless tab to ensure you have wireless as create a wireless network.

     

    wireless tab au6.png

     

    You can now use the other 3 LAN ports of the AE as extension of the LAN ports on the SB modem.. so whatever you had to unplug from there you can now plug into the AE.

  • by blackknife,

    blackknife blackknife Jan 27, 2016 5:27 PM in response to LaPastenague
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 27, 2016 5:27 PM in response to LaPastenague

    Thanks for all the help & advise. It was much easier than I anticipated. Networking has never been my strong-suit, so I wanted to be sure I had a better idea of what to do & expect before I attempted the install. I got it done last weekend, and the AE performs much better than the Motorola did as far as wifi goes, a definite improvement. I also set up a time capsule with a 2 tb external USB HDD, it's working great.

  • by LaPastenague,

    LaPastenague LaPastenague Jan 28, 2016 1:25 AM in response to blackknife
    Level 9 (52,596 points)
    Wireless
    Jan 28, 2016 1:25 AM in response to blackknife

    Thanks for the feedback and great to hear.

  • by jinet,

    jinet jinet Aug 4, 2016 2:33 PM in response to Tesserax
    Level 1 (19 points)
    Desktops
    Aug 4, 2016 2:33 PM in response to Tesserax

    I have a similar question. I just read somewhere something about double NATing and how this can slow down a wireless network. In my set up of an AE Extreme and an SB with Cox the default setting comes up as DHCP and NAT. If I try to switch this to Bridge, it wreaks havoc on my system (nothing works). So is the default setting the best? Should I just leave it like that? Or should I figure out how to get bridging to work?

     

    Relatedly, I want to create two differently labeled networks, one 2.4 GHz and the other 5.0. Is 2.4 the default? (Seems to be, since the 5.0 requires a further step under "Options" in Network. I have done this and labeled the 5.0 "5.0" and the 2.4 "2.4" to distinguish them. but when running off of 5.0 and choosing that name in the WiFi networks, the name of the base station is still "2.4"—I assume because that is the name I gave it at the start so as to be able to find it later through the wifi badge in the menu bar. Is that correct? tx

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Aug 4, 2016 3:10 PM in response to jinet
    Level 10 (105,079 points)
    Wireless
    Aug 4, 2016 3:10 PM in response to jinet

    Let's tackle your "SB" modem question first.

     

    Which "SB" model do you have?  If it looks something like this.....with only one Ethernet port....then DHCP and NAT is the correct setting for the AirPort Extreme.

    Modem.png

    If by "SB" you mean that you have a modem/router, also known as a gateway device.....with multiple Ethernet ports like the example below.....then Bridge Mode would be the correct setting for the AirPort Extreme.

    Modem Router.png

     

    Once we get things clarified on the type of modem that you are using, we can answer your other questions.

  • by jinet,

    jinet jinet Aug 4, 2016 11:08 PM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (19 points)
    Desktops
    Aug 4, 2016 11:08 PM in response to Bob Timmons

    Thanks for this. Yes, SB5101U, looks like the first image. So I'll stick with the DHCP + NAT for now. (was hoping I had messed up a chance to get a faster connection than I currently have, especially since my speeds have decreased since resetting the AE Extreme on both 2.4 and 5 bandwidths. I wonder if I did something wrong.)

  • by jinet,

    jinet jinet Aug 4, 2016 11:12 PM in response to jinet
    Level 1 (19 points)
    Desktops
    Aug 4, 2016 11:12 PM in response to jinet

    Actually, something is definitely wrong:

     

    Screen Shot 2016-08-04 at 11.11.32 PM.png

     

    This is how the problems started earlier today.

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Aug 5, 2016 6:14 AM in response to jinet
    Level 10 (105,079 points)
    Wireless
    Aug 5, 2016 6:14 AM in response to jinet

    At this point, we are drifting far away from the original topic of this post.....which is using an AirPort router with a modem/router or gateway device.

     

    You have a simple modem, not a modem/router or gateway. Now that you know that you need to use the DHCP and NAT settings on your modem, please start another post for the "disappearing" AirPort issue and the 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz questions.

  • by jinet,

    jinet jinet Aug 5, 2016 9:51 AM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (19 points)
    Desktops
    Aug 5, 2016 9:51 AM in response to Bob Timmons

    True enough. One idea, one thread. Thanks again. (Rebooting seems to have cleared up the last problem.)

  • by kblaquiere,

    kblaquiere kblaquiere Aug 18, 2016 7:39 AM in response to LaPastenague
    Level 1 (9 points)
    Aug 18, 2016 7:39 AM in response to LaPastenague

    I have been working through the same issue for a long time. You are the first person to suggest using the AE in bridge mode. Your original post did not mention how to avoid the double NAT, but I'm glad you clarified it. Is there any superiority in using the modem/router to assign IP vs. the AE, or vice versa, or is this method just simpler. I had thought that since the AE is newer technology and connected directly to my Mac, it would be the better option to use as the router and direct traffic and assist with IP passthrough for web hosting with a dynamic IP. Unfortunately, the Motorola router is buggy in bridged mode and Comcast seems to try preventing this, by methods such as disabling the option in their own routers. This has made it difficult to run my home network using the AE.

    Thank you for your help.

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Aug 18, 2016 9:43 AM in response to kblaquiere
    Level 10 (105,079 points)
    Wireless
    Aug 18, 2016 9:43 AM in response to kblaquiere

    If you have a modem/router or gateway type of device furnished to you by your provider......then it acts as if it were a separate modem and a separate router......but both are in the same physical package.

     

    You only want one device acting as a router on a home network (this has always been a fundamental networking rule), so the correct setting for another device connected to the modem/router or gateway would be Bridge Mode.  Apple calls this "Off (Bridge Mode)".  What this means is that the routing services of the Apple device are turned "off", to allow the router in your modem/router or gateway to function as the router for the entire network.

     

    When you set up an AirPort device using the AirPort Utility setup "wizard", the wizard will detect that there is another router present and will almost always automatically apply the correct Bridge Mode setting to the Apple device. Most users who set up their Apple AirPorts are not even aware that their AirPorts are operating in Bridge Mode.

     

    In the event that the Apple device is not set up in Bridge Mode for some reason with a modem/router, the indicator light on the Apple device will flash amber. When you check to see why this is occurring, AirPort Utility will indicate that there is a Double NAT condition present on the network and advise you change the setting of the Apple device to Bridge Mode.

     

    In theory, it might be possible to run two devices both acting as routers on a network, but there is no reason to needlessly complicate things by doing this.  Several reason for this.....one, you have two devices both trying to provide IP addresses to network devices, which will likely cause IP address conflicts. The other reason is to avoid a Double NAT situation on the network.

     

    Double NAT can cause a number of different unpredictable results to occur on a network, among them.......slowed connections, difficult connections between some devices on the network, lost connections between some devices on the network, slower Internet browsing, even difficulty reaching some web sites. And yet, in some cases things work OK with a Double NAT.

     

    The bottom line would be that you would normally want to avoid a Double NAT error on a home network if at all possible. I can't think a single advantage to having Double NAT on the network, even if the network seems to be functioning OK.

     

    Is there any superiority in using the modem/router to assign IP vs. the AE, or vice versa

    Not really, in theory.  But, it is a good idea to have the device that connects directly to your Internet provider supply the connection credentials, if possible, only to keep things simple.

     

    Unfortunately, the Motorola router is buggy in bridged mode and Comcast seems to try preventing this, by methods such as disabling the option in their own routers

    This is common. After all, the modem/router was designed to be just that.....a modem and router on the same chassis. Things are actually more complicated when you try to make a modem/router behave as a simple modem.

     

    Some providers lock down the settings in the modem/routers that they provide to customers, so although it might appear as if the device could be set up to work as a simple modem, the settings cannot be changed. This keeps the end user from messing things up, so the ISP does not have to spend extra time fixing problems that a user caused by "experimenting" with the settings on their modem/router.

     

    The bottom line.....if a user wants his Apple device to function as the main router on his/her network, they need to use a simple modem, not a modem/router or gateway device.