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  • 300. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
    "....Since the iPhone is only released in the UK, Germany and France and works in all three of those countries they seem to be withing the law. If you have case law to dispute my point please let me know...."

    I live in France, I have an Orange France contract. If I buy a Ford in France, the warranty applies in Germany if the car breaks down.

    Phones are sold as GSM phones which implies a lot of attributes - one of which is the ability to work with any GSM compatible SIM card.

    So Apple and Orange are not clear of an obligation having sold me a GSM unlocked phone. I am not seeking Apple UK support. I have paid in France for a product that DOES NOT work as advertised.

    Orange are clearly selling the phone with an additional payable feature -- that of SIM unlocking.

    You logic is flawed. If I buy a phone from Orange, and the phone does not work while roaming, Orange are obligated to support this feature or remove this from their literature and clearly state that the iphone is NOT a GSM phone and that the unlock DOES not work.

    Orange have already made statements in the press that the phone is globally unlocked. So they and Apple must ensure that de facto this feature is useable.
  • 301. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
    It sounds to me like Orange made claims about the product that isn't true. If I buy a washing machine and the salesman tells me it has a feature that it doesn't I don't go to Kenmore and demand the feature be installed. If a car dealer tells me that the car has 4 wheel drive and it doesn't I don't go to GM and demand a retrofit.

    The problem in this situation is Orange. They advertised the global unlock which isn't available. I believe you are all owed restitution but not from Apple.
  • 302. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
    A GSM phone is a GSM phone is a GSM phone. GSM is a very well defined standard, people are talking crap. If I buy a phone in France and I buy a legal unlock, the phone IS OBLIGATED by definition to work with ANY valid GSM SIM.

    This is not a complex principle. Sigh!
  • 303. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
    Kevin Brown2 wrote:
    You logic is flawed. If I buy a phone from Orange, and the phone does not work while roaming, Orange are obligated to support this feature or remove this from their literature and clearly state that the iphone is NOT a GSM phone and that the unlock DOES not work.

    Its not a question of roaming. That they would have to cover. Its a question of using the phone on a network outside of the country it was sold. From what I have read of the EU charter Apple nor Orange is required to support this issue. Again, if you have citations or case law refuting this please post it. I would love to be corrected on this one.
  • 304. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
    Kevin Brown2 wrote:
    the phone IS OBLIGATED by definition to work with ANY valid GSM SIM.

    And it does, providing that SIM is from a French carrier.

    Look, I'm not saying this is right. What I am saying is lets look at the fact here:

    1) Apple did this deliberately. Thats obvious since they havent fixed it.
    2) The applicable parts of the EU charter (Artical 26) states they don't have to support it.

    If you can post case law refuting my point please do so. However, as it stands now the practice is legal. Maybe not moral but legal.
  • 305. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
    ".... From what I have read of the EU charter Apple nor Orange is required to support this issue. ......"

    My head is exploding. Do you understand what a GSM phone is? Do you understand Orange are charging for a SIM unlock? Are you understanding that Orange have confirmed that a full unlock has been done?

    Look up the concept of merchantable goods.
  • 306. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
    Orange are delivering on their promise. The phone is unlocked. Truly, I have extensively tested this ( I work with the world's largest mobile operator).

    Because of SOFTWARE issues, the phone is incapable of being used as a phone when unlocked.

    So, do Orange issue a patch release? Or Apple?
  • 307. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
    ".....If I buy a phone from Orange, and the phone does not work while roaming, Orange are obligated to support this feature or remove this from their literature and clearly state that the iphone is NOT a GSM phone and that the unlock DOES not work....."

    ok lets rephrase.......

    If I buy a phone UNLOCKED from Orange, and the phone does not work while using another valid GSM compliant SIM card, Orange AND APPPLE are obligated to support this feature or remove this from their literature and clearly state that the iphone is NOT a GSM phone and that the unlock DOES not work.
  • 308. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
    Yes, I understand what both are Kevin. The SIM unlock Orange is charging for allows it to work on any French carrier as required by French law. The unlock does this or am I wrong?

    My point is that the EU Charger LAW says they don't have to support it in other countries. It works in France where it was marketed and sold by Apple. It doesn't work in countries where it was not marketed and sold.

    Orange is lying and their customers deserve restitution. The do not, however, get a functional unlocked phone.

    Quote me case law that deputes what I have posted and I'll debate you. Otherwise you are just stating your opinion.
  • 309. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
    "....The SIM unlock Orange is charging for allows it to work on any French carrier as required by French law. The unlock does this or am I wrong?..."

    You are so wrong I cannot even begin.

    DO you live in France? Have you read the literature? Have you seen the press statements from Orange stating clearly that the 100 Euros allows a full unlock.

    Let's reverse the picture since you seem to love quoting un named French laws.

    Where is it published as an official statement that the phone is ONLY unlocked for French networks?


    Quote: ".... iLounge has gotten word from Orange spokesperson Louis-Michel Aymard. We’re going to go with the official claim and believe that unlocked iPhones are truly unlocked for use on any network around the world.

    Orange clarified the unlocking issue by stating that “Once legally (through Orange Customer Service) unlocked, the iPhone will operate with any SIM card, including foreign ones. But some applications like ‘Visual Voice Mail’ may not work abroad.”....."


    Can you understand when I assure you 100% that the iphone has been formally tested by me and it is unlocked for ALL SIM's.

    Can you understand when I tell you that Apple France are aware of the SOFTWARE issue causing the phone and SMS app to crash with certain SIM cards installed?

    Repeat after me - the phone is UNLOCKED.
  • 310. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
    Kevin Brown2 wrote:
    "....The SIM unlock Orange is charging for allows it to work on any French carrier as required by French law. The unlock does this or am I wrong?..."

    You are so wrong I cannot even begin.

    So it doesn't work on other French carriers?

    Quote: ".... iLounge has gotten word from Orange spokesperson Louis-Michel Aymard. We’re going to go with the official claim and believe that unlocked iPhones are truly unlocked for use on any network around the world.

    Orange clarified the unlocking issue by stating that “Once legally (through Orange Customer Service) unlocked, the iPhone will operate with any SIM card, including foreign ones. But some applications like ‘Visual Voice Mail’ may not work abroad.”....."


    As I said, Orange was lying or misinformed. Show me a statement from Apple saying it worked worldwide.

    Repeat after me - the phone is UNLOCKED.

    Obviously it isn't. I'm still waiting on case law that says it has to work in countries other than France.
  • 311. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
    EU Law and Merchantable Goods:

    "....Consumer goods must be in conformity with the contract of sale. Goods are deemed to be in conformity with the contract if, at the moment of delivery to the consumer:

    - they comply with the description given by the seller and possess the qualities of the product which the seller has held out to the consumer as a sample or model;
    - they are fit for the purposes for which goods of the same type are normally used;
    - they are fit for any particular purpose for which the consumer requires them and which was made known to the seller at the time of conclusion of the contract, and accepted by the seller;
    - their quality and performance are satisfactory, given the nature of the goods and taking into account the public statements made about them by the seller, the producer or his representative.

    The seller is liable to the consumer for any lack of conformity which exists when the goods are delivered to the consumer and which becomes apparent within a period of 2 years unless, at the moment of conclusion of the contract of sale, the consumer knew or could not reasonably be unaware of the lack of conformity.

    When a consumer reports the lack of conformity to the seller, they are entitled to expect:

    - that the goods be repaired or replaced free of charge within a reasonable period and without major inconvenience to the consumer;
    - for a reduction to be made to the price, or for the contract to be rescinded, if repair or replacement is impossible or disproportionate, or if the seller has not remedied the problem within a reasonable period or without major inconvenience to the consumer.

    The consumer is not entitled to have the contract rescinded if the lack of conformity is minor.

    Any commercial guarantee offered by a seller or producer will be legally binding under the conditions laid down in the guarantee document and the associated advertising. The guarantee must state that the consumer has statutory rights and clearly state that these rights are not affected by the guarantee. The guarantee must then state its content, in simple and understandable terms, and indicate the conditions for claiming under it, notably its duration and territorial scope and the name and address of the guarantor.

    At the consumer's request, the guarantee shall be made available in writing or on another durable medium. Within its own territory, the Member State in which the consumer goods are marketed may provide that the guarantee be drafted in one or more official languages of the Community.
    ....."
  • 312. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
    Finally, something in other than opinion!

    It seems from this that Orange is required to make restitution for claiming the iPhone could be globably unlocked. This would be monitary since Orange can't rewrite the code.

    Since Apple never made this claim, made a public statement to this effect or offered this service they are not responsible for what Orange may have claimed. Again, I don't demand a retrofit on my car by GM if the salesman lies to me.
  • 313. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
    http://www.apple.com/fr/iphone/specs.html

    "...GSM
    Quadribande (850, 900, 1 800 et 1 900 MHz)....."

    They state clearly it is a GSM phone, and Orange sell an Unlocked GSM phone for a fee.

    Let's rehash this phrase:

    "....hey comply with the description given by the seller and possess the qualities of the product which the seller has held out to the consumer as a sample or model;
    they are fit for the purposes for which goods of the same type are normally used;
    they are fit for any particular purpose for which the consumer requires them and which was made known to the seller at the time of conclusion of the contract, and accepted by the seller;
    their quality and performance are satisfactory, given the nature of the goods and taking into account the public statements made about them by the seller, the producer or his representative....."

    I asked for an unlocked GSM phone, I was asked to pay 100 euros for a phone unlock.

    The phone is advertised as a GSM phone. The GSM spec specifies that phones MUST work with any GSM SIM card.

    Are you getting this?
  • 314. Re: Unlocked German iPhone not working
    yvann_11 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Conversation I had be4 buying the iPhone

    Question 1: Will the unlocked iPhone work with ANY sim card?
    Answer: Yes

    Question 2: Will I be able to use ALL of its functions?
    Answer: Yes

    Question 3: Are you ABSOLUTELY sure?
    Answer: Yes

    I honestly don't know what wrong assumption could I have made after those answers.
    I wish people in Europe are more like people in US and take this matter to court for no other reason but to make some negative media coverage for Apple. Update and solution to our problems would be out in no time.