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Unlocked German iPhone not working

23380 Views 334 Replies Latest reply: Dec 19, 2007 9:42 AM by Kevin Brown2 RSS
  • Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:16 AM (in response to Kevin Brown2)
    Apples doesn't advertise is as an "unlocked" GSM phone. Just a GSM phone. GSM phones are not required to be unlocked in many countries.

    Orange sold it as a globally unlocked GSM phone. They made that claim, not Apple. Orange lied to you, not Apple. Apple is not liable for Oranges lies or misstatements as they are the "producer" not the "seller."

    I'm not saying your weren't lied to and I'm not saying you don't deserve restitution. All I'm saying is that Apple never made this claim so they are not responsible.

    Mind you, I don't believe this is right. I'm just playing the devil's advocate.
    MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.1), iPhone 8gb
  • Dogan Level 1 Level 1 (135 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:17 AM (in response to Keith Vaugh)
    Doesn't work in Japan, they don't use GSM.

    What if it was a case of just not testing for countries they hadn't scheduled to release in yet, instead of some big conspiracy?
  • Kevin Brown2 Calculating status...
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:20 AM (in response to Ansuz82)
    ".....As I said, Orange was lying or misinformed. Show me a statement from Apple saying it worked worldwide.
    ....."

    Apple France state the phone is a GSM phone.

    An extract where a French court affirmed that a phone MUST be SIM UNLOCKED. SIM unlocked means free to put ANY GSM SIM card in a phone.

    ".....Par ordonnance d'Injonction de Faire en date du 18 Mai 2001, il a été ordonné à la SOCIETE ANONYME FTMS de fournir à Monsieur XXXXX le code "SIMLOCK" dans le délai d'un mois à compter de la notification de la présente ordonnance, celle-ci précisant que l'affaire serait examinée à l'audience du 13 septembre à moins que le demandeur n'ait fait connaître que l'injonction avait été exécutée......."
    Mac Book Pro 15" 2.33 GHz 2 Gigs RAM, Mac OS X (10.4.9), Mackie 1640 Mixer, Yamaha DTXtreme IIs Drums
  • Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:26 AM (in response to Ansuz82)
    "....Orange is lying and their customers deserve restitution. The do not, however, get a functional unlocked phone.
    ...."

    As quoted elsewhere Orange are OBLIGATED to offer a way to SIM Unlocked all phones in France to the marketplace.

    French law is clear on this point. Orange France however do not control the software issue that causes the unlock to be unusable outside of US, UK, Germany and France.

    Orange are trying to meet their obligation and as such are unlocking the phones. It is now up to Apple to fix this flaw or withdraw the phone entirely from the French market and offer a refund to each and every user of the phone.

    Your ill informed "opinions" about the unlock are baseless. The iphone is SIM unlocked as defined by the GSM standard. However, once unlocked the software is no longer capable of allowing the device to function fully as a GSM phone.
    Mac Book Pro 15" 2.33 GHz 2 Gigs RAM, Mac OS X (10.4.9), Mackie 1640 Mixer, Yamaha DTXtreme IIs Drums
  • Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:27 AM (in response to Kevin Brown2)
    Kevin Brown2 wrote:
    An extract where a French court affirmed that a phone MUST be SIM UNLOCKED. SIM unlocked means free to put ANY GSM SIM card in a phone.

    ".....Par ordonnance d'Injonction de Faire en date du 18 Mai 2001, il a été ordonné à la SOCIETE ANONYME FTMS de fournir à Monsieur XXXXX le code "SIMLOCK" dans le délai d'un mois à compter de la notification de la présente ordonnance, celle-ci précisant que l'affaire serait examinée à l'audience du 13 septembre à moins que le demandeur n'ait fait connaître que l'injonction avait été exécutée......."

    That decision said it had to be unlocked for France, not globaly. A French court does not have the jurisdiction to make a global ruling.

    Since I do not live in France answer me this. Is the phone unlocked for all FRENCH carriers?
    MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.1), iPhone 8gb
  • Tamara Level 6 Level 6 (13,720 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:31 AM (in response to Kevin Brown2)
    Where in the definition of "GSM phone" does it say that the phone must be unlocked? According to wikipedia, GSM is a standard for a mobile telephone system that could be used across Europe.

    Also from the wikipedia GSM article: "In Australia, Canada, Europe and the United States many operators lock the mobiles they sell."
    MacBook , Mini, Airport Express, Mac OS X (10.5)
  • Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:37 AM (in response to Ansuz82)
    "That decision said it had to be unlocked for France"

    You just pull stuff out of the air? The court made no ruling about France/Not France. They ordered France Telecom to deliver the code to allow the phone to SIM unlocked. SIM unlock is a specific and unambiguous term. It means unlocked to enable ANY SIM.

    A french court has jurisidiction to rule if a phone is sold as defined by it's description and that a phone sold must comply with the requirement to be able to be SIM UNLOCKED, that description being a GSM phone. This has NOTHING to do with global / not global.

    They do not refer to a Network Unlock - they mandate a SIM unlock.
    Mac Book Pro 15" 2.33 GHz 2 Gigs RAM, Mac OS X (10.4.9), Mackie 1640 Mixer, Yamaha DTXtreme IIs Drums
  • Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:39 AM (in response to Kevin Brown2)
    In this case, it means unlocked for any SIM in France. As I said, a French court can not require a product to do ANYTHING outside of their borders.

    While the decision may not have specified France they do not have the jurisdiction outside their own country to enforce the unlock. So long as the phone sold in France will work on any French carrier the decision is being abided to.

    Again, I ask, does the iPhone work with all FRENCH GSM SIM cards?
    MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.1), iPhone 8gb
  • Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:42 AM (in response to Tamara)
    GSM is a complete standard that includes the requirement to work with ANY GSM SIM card.

    So, if a phone is sold as a GSM phone, and if the phone is sold in France, the commercially enforcable expectation is that once a LEGAL SIM unlock is applied to the phone, it still functions as a GSM phone.

    Apple are not advertising this as a phone that fails to adhere to the GSM standard once unlocked. I bought the phone with the express understanding and agreement that it would be SIM unlocked.

    You guys are pulling fluff from the air.
    Mac Book Pro 15" 2.33 GHz 2 Gigs RAM, Mac OS X (10.4.9), Mackie 1640 Mixer, Yamaha DTXtreme IIs Drums
  • Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:44 AM (in response to Kevin Brown2)
    It is SIM unlocked for the country that requires it. Apple and Orange are following the ruling.

    For the third time: Does it work with all French GSM SIM cards?
    MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.1), iPhone 8gb
  • Tamara Level 6 Level 6 (13,720 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:48 AM (in response to Kevin Brown2)
    I give up. In your world, GSM = unlocked so if you're happy with your erroneous idea then far be it from me to discuss this any further.

    Could you provide a link to anything in the EU charter that says ALL countries in the EU must sell globally unlocked phones? If not, don't bother replying to me.
    MacBook , Mini, Airport Express, Mac OS X (10.5)
  • Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:57 AM (in response to Ansuz82)
    "...In this case, it means unlocked for any SIM in France. As I said, a French court can not require a product to do ANYTHING outside of their borders..."

    Two aspects:

    1. The ordered a SIM unlock to be handed over. It did not mandate a network unlock. It does not mean this and it is obvious in this and in all cases when an unlock is bought it is unlocked for all SIMs. I have several phones I bought in France with no contract and each and every one is SIM unlocked and will accept any SIM from any country in the world. Each phone was bought from Orange.

    2. If I buy a GSM phone in France and it does not work as defined by the GSM standard, a French court can and will intervene to protect the rights of the consumer.

    It is established in Europe and in France that a SIM unlocked phone can be used with any SIM. The fact is that if I visit Germany ( as I am now doing) my legally unlocked phone MUST work with any SIM I chose to use, once I have paid for the SIM unlock.

    Apple are advertising a GSM phone. They are not advertising a french only phone. Apple have locked the phone in other countries but they must offer a SIM unlock in France.

    The french law or case law does not name any network that each operator is obligated to allow.

    Under EU law, I am perfectly allowed to buy a phone in France and take a UK contract with Vodafone.

    As long as I pay the unlock fee.

    You are dancing around and ignoring the implications, and duties of a company who wish to sell a GSM phone in France.

    ALL OTHER PHONES SOLD BY ORANGE AND UNLOCKED WORK WITH ALL SIMS. Except the iphone. Because of a software issue.
    Mac Book Pro 15" 2.33 GHz 2 Gigs RAM, Mac OS X (10.4.9), Mackie 1640 Mixer, Yamaha DTXtreme IIs Drums
  • Kevin Brown2 Level 2 Level 2 (170 points)
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    Dec 19, 2007 8:59 AM (in response to Ansuz82)
    "....It is SIM unlocked for the country that requires it...."

    Since you have no comprehension of what SIM unlocked means, I cannot sway you. I describe blue and you speak of red.

    You are welcome to your ill informed opinions.
    Mac Book Pro 15" 2.33 GHz 2 Gigs RAM, Mac OS X (10.4.9), Mackie 1640 Mixer, Yamaha DTXtreme IIs Drums
  • Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 19, 2007 9:02 AM (in response to Kevin Brown2)
    Kevin Brown2 wrote:
    "...In this case, it means unlocked for any SIM in France. As I said, a French court can not require a product to do ANYTHING outside of their borders..."

    Two aspects:

    1. The ordered a SIM unlock to be handed over. It did not mandate a network unlock. It does not mean this and it is obvious in this and in all cases when an unlock is bought it is unlocked for all SIMs. I have several phones I bought in France with no contract and each and every one is SIM unlocked and will accept any SIM from any country in the world. Each phone was bought from Orange.


    A french court can only govern what a product does in their borders. Does it work with all French SIM cards?

    2. If I buy a GSM phone in France and it does not work as defined by the GSM standard, a French court can and will intervene to protect the rights of the consumer.

    A french court can only govern what a product does in their borders. Does it work with all French SIM cards?

    It is established in Europe and in France that a SIM unlocked phone can be used with any SIM. The fact is that if I visit Germany ( as I am now doing) my legally unlocked phone MUST work with any SIM I chose to use, once I have paid for the SIM unlock.

    Is it just the common practice or is it in the law? If it is in the law, cite said law.

    Apple are advertising a GSM phone. They are not advertising a french only phone. Apple have locked the phone in other countries but they must offer a SIM unlock in France.

    GSM does not mean unlocked.

    Under EU law, I am perfectly allowed to buy a phone in France and take a UK contract with Vodafone.

    As long as I pay the unlock fee.

    Cite said law.

    You are dancing around and ignoring the implications, and duties of a company who wish to sell a GSM phone in France.

    No, my freind, it is you who is ignorant of the fact that no country can govern what a product does outside of their own borders. The EU charter does not demand that is work. The French court mandated that the phone work for all French carriers.

    So I ask, for the 6th time in 4 posts. Does it work with all French SIM cards?

    Do you not have answer to my question?
    MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.1), iPhone 8gb
  • Ansuz82 Level 6 Level 6 (8,265 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 19, 2007 9:06 AM (in response to Kevin Brown2)
    Kevin Brown2 wrote:
    Since you have no comprehension of what SIM unlocked means, I cannot sway you. I describe blue and you speak of red.

    You are welcome to your ill informed opinions.


    It is you who's opinions are ill informed. You seem to have no realization of what the laws of an autonomous nation can control.

    It would seem that the real world backs up my theory as Apple has not been successfully sued or sanctioned by any nation for the locked phone.

    Message was edited by: Ansuz82
    MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.1), iPhone 8gb

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