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Satoru Murata

Q: Slow Wireless LAN in Leopard

All right, I've spent the past 12 hours (on and off, of course) looking through all the threads in here, doing a lot of experimentation, and a bunch of clean installs and whatnots, and I've decided to start a new thread, since in many of the said threads, some people seemed to have similar issues, but the other issues in the same threads seem to be different problems, and it just becomes confusing when you try to trouble shoot something and people are talking about different problems.


So, this thread is specifically for people who satisfy these criteria under Leopard:

1) You're having issues with very slow file transfers in your *local network* when at least one end is connected wirelessly; that is to say, when both ends are connected to the router via ethernet, you see no problem at all.

2) Your wireless connection doesn't display problems when connecting to the internet.

3) It is not specifically an 802.11n issue; i.e., the problem can be duplicated when in Mixed b/g only mode and/or using an 802.11g router.

4) It's not a router connection issue; i.e., your wireless connection isn't being dropped, and you are able to find your AP and connect to it without any problems.




So basically, that more or less sums up my problem. My equipments:

MacBook Core2Duo 2.2GHz, 802.11b/g/n, OSX 10.5.2
iMac Core2Duo 2.13GHz, 802.11b/g/n, OSX 10.5.2
Router 1: TRENDnet TEW-631BRP (Draft N router), H/W V3.0R, FW v.1.0.3.7
Router 2: NETGEAR WGR614 v.5 (g), FW v.1.0.3_1.0.3

Internet: RCN Cable, 20Mbps/2Mbps


In my usual setup, the iMac is connected via Ethernet and the Macbook is connected wirelessly.


I know that this is a Leopard problem, but I'm not so sure it's a 10.5.2 specific problem. Let me explain.

I'd been using the TRENDnet more or less happily for the last couple of months. My iMac and Macbook have been in sync in terms of Leopard versions, so I know things were OK till last night when I first noticed problems. Transferring a large video file from the iMac to the Macbook would start off fine, then really slow down, and finally almost completely halt. Naturally, I blamed 10.5.2.


After trying all the different "fixes" in the Leopard/network related threads with no avail, I tried booting my laptop into Tiger (10.4.11) installed on an external HDD. Voila, wireless file transfer speed is fast at around 8MB/sec (obviously using N). I did a fresh install of 10.5, and the speed immediately dropped down to 1-2MB/sec, although not necessarily stalling. Then, updating to 10.5.2 slowed it down more, and now the transfers will sooner or later almost completely stall.


Again, I tried all the suggested remedies (use b/g Only mode, adjust RTS/Fragmentation thresholds, use WEP instead of WPA, delete all the Network Services in System Preferences -> Network, etc., etc.). Nothing helps. I tried swapping the router to an older Netgear (802.11g/b), and it's the same deal, so it's not a router issue.


A definite characteristic is that the transfer seems to stall after a certain period of sustained transferring; i.e., this will usually only happen when transferring large files (>200MB). If I were to download a folder with 600 JPEG files @ 1MB each, there won't be a problem, and the transfer rate will be pretty fast (although not as fast as under Tiger @ 7-8MB/sec), and it won't stall. It's only when I try to transfer big video files, etc., that this problem occurs.



If you are having similar issues, please share your experiences, suggest remedies, offer insights. I will try to answer any question you may have and that I may have missed to address.


PLEASE: if your symptoms are different from what's listed up there, please try to refrain from posting here, unless you are absolutely certain that the issues are related. Thanks.

iMac 20" Core2Duo 2.13Ghz/ MacBook 2.2 GHz Superdrive (White), Mac OS X (10.5.2)

Posted on Feb 14, 2008 12:39 AM

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Q: Slow Wireless LAN in Leopard

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  • by eamonn.faherty,

    eamonn.faherty eamonn.faherty Feb 23, 2008 9:57 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 23, 2008 9:57 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Much props to you for starting this thread.

    I have the same problem and am going mad. I have apple care and will try and call them in the morning to find out if they can help me. This is doing my head in. I have a dlink dir 635 router and have lowered the threshold as before I lowered it i could not connect to the wlan. I could get an ip but could not contact any other host. how i can. internet speeds are about 1.6MB which is normal. lan speeds are about 100k which *****. i have tried 802.11n and 802.11g. neither work well.
  • by Satoru Murata,

    Satoru Murata Satoru Murata Feb 23, 2008 10:27 AM in response to pbw
    Level 1 (15 points)
    Feb 23, 2008 10:27 AM in response to pbw
    Thanks for your report, it is very helpful. This suggests that this is NOT a universal problem with the OS, and therefore the reason behind what all of us are seeing must lie somewhere else.

    One thing I (or someone) would have to try: boot 2 computers into a completely fresh copy of OS 10.5.2 and see if this problem persists. If it does, then the problem is most likely to be something physical (as in hardware as opposed to software), or environmental (e.g., interference).

    Let's continue our examinations.
  • by Michael Vannorsdel,

    Michael Vannorsdel Michael Vannorsdel Feb 24, 2008 1:52 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 1 (40 points)
    Feb 24, 2008 1:52 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    I got the same issue after applying the 10.5.2 update. Uploads would start at full speed then after 3-5mins decay down to 30KB/s (from 150KB/s). This happened over wireless and ethernet. I tried adjusting delayed ack and several other settings, nothing worked. Finally downgraded to 10.5.0 and now uploads are fine again.
  • by eamonn.faherty,

    eamonn.faherty eamonn.faherty Feb 24, 2008 6:05 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 24, 2008 6:05 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    I have added this to digg

    http://digg.com/apple/Reportslow_wifi_speeds_after_Apple_OS_X_Update_10_52

    digg it and get apple to see!
  • by ibosie,

    ibosie ibosie Feb 24, 2008 6:40 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 4 (1,119 points)
    Feb 24, 2008 6:40 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    I've had the same behaviour on my network since Airport Firmware 7.2.1 (AEBSn) 6.3 (AEX) and Tiger 10.4.9 which followed through into Leopard (despite 3 clean installs). I have spent literally days on end trying to debug the performance issue using all sorts of set-up arrangements including using the base stations as DHCP router with 3rd parties in bridge mode (to negotiate ADSL2+) and continue to draw a blank. My conclusion (process of elimination) is that both OSX airport drivers and Airport Firmware require a fix from Apple. Meanwhile I'm trying out John's suggestion with fingers crossed.

    Apple tested hardware list:
    AEBSg
    AEBSn x 2
    AEX

    3rd Party routers tested:
    Netgear DG834GT
    Netgear DG834N
    Draytek Vigor 2820
    Zyxel P660HW T1
    Speedtouch 780WL
    Speedtouch 546v6
  • by BobP1776,

    BobP1776 BobP1776 Feb 24, 2008 6:45 AM in response to ibosie
    Level 3 (695 points)
    Feb 24, 2008 6:45 AM in response to ibosie
    See this post for the first suggestion I've read so far as to what the underlying problem might be in 10.5.2 and why turning off delayed ACKs may be working as a band-aid solution:

    http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=6681285#6681285

    --Bob
  • by Satoru Murata,

    Satoru Murata Satoru Murata Feb 24, 2008 8:34 AM in response to BobP1776
    Level 1 (15 points)
    Feb 24, 2008 8:34 AM in response to BobP1776
    Thanks, Bob, for the info.

    It does sound like this "Silly Window Problem" describes the problems we're seeing. However, if this is strictly a TCP problem inherent in 10.5.2, then I wonder why some people aren't seeing this at all.
  • by Graefe,

    Graefe Graefe Feb 24, 2008 8:53 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 1 (95 points)
    Feb 24, 2008 8:53 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Hi,

    I had exactly the same problem. Eventually, changing the WLAN channel solved my problems: I was using channel 4 for many years and did not have any problems until I updated to 10.5.2.
    Now I changed to channel 8 - and it works flawlessly, again! This is somehow strange, as I cannot find any router, which uses my old channel.

    I would encourage everybody to try different channels. Maybe this will help someone.

    Graefe

    Message was edited by: Graefe
  • by BobP1776,

    BobP1776 BobP1776 Feb 24, 2008 10:19 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 3 (695 points)
    Feb 24, 2008 10:19 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Saturo,
    I'm no expert in this stuff, but it sounds to me like this is a case where specific performance issues in the source or destination could trigger the problem. The problem then cascades into something so bad the user sees it. With a different source or destination, or perhaps even some difference we haven't fathomed yet in the wireless hub, the problem might not start or might be minor enough that the two ends recover before the user notices anything is wrong.

    Since we are seeing this almost exclusively in wireless setups, I'm assuming Apple made some change in 10.5.2 which made it more sensitive to the START of problems in the transmission (and more specifically, to large data transfers that are outbound from the 10.5.2 machine). And if this "silly windows" thing is really what's going on, then that triggers the cascade of window size reductions.

    I like this explanation because it would also explain why turning off delayed ACKs is not getting people back the full transmission speed they had before. The problem recovers, but then recurs, and you are wasting time with multiple recoveries.

    All of this is guess-work at this point. I'm hoping the guy who posted in the other thread comes back with how he saw increased packet counts and what he knows about what that means for improperly reduced window sizes.

    EDITED TO ADD: The difference could even be that some wireless setups see occasional interference which triggers the cascade of window size reductions, whereas others don't. I'm not sure how long it takes for the windows to get too small in this scenario, but there could be an element of how large the transfer is and how likely it is that an interference glitch will happen at some time during that transfer and initiate the problem.
    --Bob

    Message was edited by: BobP1776
  • by pbw,

    pbw pbw Feb 24, 2008 11:10 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 1 (70 points)
    Feb 24, 2008 11:10 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    This is off-topic from this specific thread but I found that the newer 802.11a/b/g/n Airport cards are much more sensitive to 2.4Ghz interference than older 802.11b/g cards:
    http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=6643047#6643047

    Again, this clearly isn't the root cause for this problem but it could be confusing the issue.
  • by interval,

    interval interval Feb 24, 2008 12:59 PM in response to Graefe
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 24, 2008 12:59 PM in response to Graefe
    I've been plagued by painfully slow wireless file transfers since updating to 10.5.2. I changed my channel to 8 and have found it solved the problem. I suggest that everyone give this a try!
  • by ibosie,

    ibosie ibosie Feb 25, 2008 3:42 PM in response to ibosie
    Level 4 (1,119 points)
    Feb 25, 2008 3:42 PM in response to ibosie
    Unfortunately delay_ack 0 hasn't worked for me, infact it made file transfers (scp -r etc...) on my local network very unreliable. I guess there isn't a single answer to these airport issues. I'm hoping Time Capsule will prompt the release of new firmware for Airport, it can't be too far away I hope.
  • by Schnitzlwirt,

    Schnitzlwirt Schnitzlwirt Feb 26, 2008 11:55 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 1 (4 points)
    iPhone
    Feb 26, 2008 11:55 AM in response to Satoru Murata
    thanks for bringing this focussed thread to life!

    have been following this after i found it 3 days ago and just wanted to add my five cents which i haven't seen detailed out here yet:

    it seems there's a significant difference between WRITING and READING speeds while copying over wireless between two macs in leopard.2.

    writing in .2 hasn't really been a problem but as pointed out many times here, reading shows the symptoms described above. start off fine, slow down, slow down significantly and then stop w/ error.

    the ACK "band-aid": while now at least allowing successful copying for me, seems to have significally reduced (pre .2) speed. while reading a 700MB file took "about 2 minutes" before .2 it now takes "about 6 minutes".

    can anyone confirm this experience?

    haven't tried the "channel 8" thing yet.

    thanks, wirt
  • by Jowie,

    Jowie Jowie Feb 27, 2008 1:03 PM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 2 (205 points)
    Feb 27, 2008 1:03 PM in response to Satoru Murata
    I hope I don't repeat anything that has already been said here, but I know the Satoru wanted to hear from everyone with the same problem, so here I am!

    G4, MacBook, both .11g connections to a .11g Netgear router. Internet and other protocols tried, high throughput. AFP connections run at between 20-70KB/s.

    Then I ran this script (the delayed ACK thing):

    http://www.mat.ethz.ch/services/its...mbaread/index

    When I installed it on my MacBook, RX improved but TX was still slow. Installing on the G4 then made all RX and TX improve. So I'm assuming the script helps transfers in an incoming direction.

    I'm guessing this is a hack - but is this as fast as a proper solution?
  • by Sterling Garwood,

    Sterling Garwood Sterling Garwood Mar 2, 2008 12:29 PM in response to Satoru Murata
    Level 1 (15 points)
    Mar 2, 2008 12:29 PM in response to Satoru Murata
    It is almost definitely a bug in handling delayed_ack. I tested both Leopard and Tiger, setting delayed_ack=0 (off) and delayed_ack=3 (default .... "detect streaming" according to Darwin source code).
    With default i get about 2Mb down and 256Kb up (50% of my rated connection speed). With delayed_ack=0 (off) I get about 4Mb down and 400Kb up .. close to the advertised line speed. I filed a Radar on it.
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