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sopranojam851

Q: PowerBook 280c or 2300c questions

Hey, I'm new to this particular forum, but just wondering if I can get some help.

I'm really attracted to the entire line of the Duo PowerBooks, and namely the 280c and the 2300c.

I guess the main reason that I'm considering the Duo 280c is because a friend of mine used to own one, and he raves about it constantly, how the video performance is better than the 2300c, and the track ball feels much nicer than the track pad of the 2300c...

But I do understand that the numbers don't lie, and the 2300c has the 100 MHz vs the 33 MHz of the 280c.... Likewise the maximum supported OS for the 280c as far as I know is OS 8.1, whereas the 2300c will go up to 9.1...

So I guess you're next question is, what the **** am I wanting to do with it? Well, that's a very good question! I know that I can't do much of anything without having at least a minidock or duo dock. I would like to be able to use it for word processing email, maybe SOME basic web browsing (though I KNOW there are limitations with that, given the max resolution of 640x400...) and perhaps, to have a sound-track to all of this work, and have some type of way to play audio while working.

Now, the first thing that I notice about these is that the only way to have audio and internet connectivity at all is via some type of dock. After doing some digging, it looks like I would either need a mini dock (I've seen one made by E-Machines, called the E-Machines Etherdock.....? and I've seen one made by Newer Technologies that's also called the Etherdock...) However as far as the audio output jacks on these mini docks, I THINK that the 280c has only 8 bit mono audio out, and the 2300c has only 16 bit mono audio out.

BUT, the Duo Dock II has two NuBus slots, so is it possible to install a NuBus video card and NuBus sound card into one of those, and have decent graphics and sound while the unit is docked there? And if so, what type of screen resolution and sound quality can I expect? (1024 x 768 would be REALLY nice, but I could like with 800x600 if I had to... Also having stereo sound output is fairly important, as long as it can play CD-Quality audio. I know I can use iTunes with OS 9, but if I had OS 8, I'll definitely have to find an alternative...)

Another item of concern is the batteries -- is there any way to rebuild the batteries? And if so, where would you find the cells to rebuild them with? I've heard that the batteries weren't too great in these things, and I've seen replacements out there for 100 plus.......not my cup of tea.

I'm attracted to these machines because they sell for SO CHEAPLY out there these days.... and I'm really attracted to the design, and docking concept. I'm just wondering if I can do the above things with it....

iBook clamshell, Mac OS 9.2.x, 80 GB Hard Drive with AirPort Card and 576 MB of Ram

Posted on Oct 18, 2008 10:38 AM

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Q: PowerBook 280c or 2300c questions

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  • by Niteshooter,

    Niteshooter Niteshooter Oct 18, 2008 4:23 PM in response to sopranojam851
    Level 2 (454 points)
    Oct 18, 2008 4:23 PM in response to sopranojam851
    Hmm owning both of the Duos you mention.....

    Apple also shipped a PPC upgrade kit for the 270c and 280c so you can potentially find a PPC Duo with a trackball instead of a trackpad. If you are a fan of Missile Command then yes the trackball is for you!

    I would go with the PPC version since with OS 9 you can run iTunes.

    As for docks there were two versions of dock the original and the Dock II and that is the one you want because it has the larger slot to fit the colour Duos. The original had a slightly smaller opening and therefore the 270c, 280c and 2300c would not fit unless you unclipped the lid and propped it up a bit.

    The Dock also had a built in scsi drive though it's getting tougher to find good working drives.

    If I recall correctly the one thing that would stop me from doing this is that the Duo's only supported 256 colours at 640x480 on their LCD screens and you cannot upgrade their vram is it is built in. I seem to recall you could get thousands of colours by changing the screen res but it made the screen smaller.

    Personally I would go with a 2400c since you can add a Wireless card put a lot more ram on board and have a screen with much higher res and colours.

    Oh and if some minder doesn't nuke the link in my tagline follow that link as I have some info on the 2400c there.

    Kevin
  • by sopranojam85,

    sopranojam85 sopranojam85 Oct 20, 2008 4:46 AM in response to Niteshooter
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Oct 20, 2008 4:46 AM in response to Niteshooter
    Kevin,

    Thanks a million for the response....this particular forum seems like a ghost town most of the time :-0

    I would still really dig one of these machines, and am willing to work around the resolution issues... I guess I mainly have three questions.

    1. Are there any mini docks out there that will allow for stereo 16-bit sound output?
    2. If not, is it possible to use the NuBus slots of the DuoDock II for graphics and sound cards, to get at least 800x600 resolution, and at least 16 bit stereo sound output?
    3. Any thoughts on rebuilding the batteries on these? All I could find was this: http://www.fenestrated.net/~macman/DuoBattery/index.html , and it doesn't go into much detail, much less tell you what type of cells you need to purchase...

    Thanks! If nothing else, I've started a ranting-ground for people who may have owned or still own these great machines.

    -callie-
  • by Niteshooter,

    Niteshooter Niteshooter Oct 20, 2008 9:58 AM in response to sopranojam85
    Level 2 (454 points)
    Oct 20, 2008 9:58 AM in response to sopranojam85
    No problem.

    Re 16 bit sound, good question. I'm looking at my Dock II and it seems to me that it has a mini stereo plug on it like all the newer Macs. But I can't find anything on it that tells me for sure. A lot of Powerbooks had stereo sound but only mono speakers and perhaps that's where the confusion comes into play? Seems to me soundtreker was in stereo on my 180c.

    As for graphics, well the Dock II has a slot to increase it's vram from 1MB up to ? I have a chip in mine and I can't recall what it was but I remember having at least a 14" on it at one time and am pretty sure I ran a 16" as well. When I find time to dig out an old Mac monitor I'll give it a try.

    The Dock II has two nubus slots and I seem to recall them being full length so you should be able to shove an 8*24 card in there and drive a big monitor but don't quote me on it until I have time to try it. The one useful thing is the network card though in the second nubus slot.

    Re batteries, no idea. All PowerBook batteries are a PITA to open because they are glued shut. Once you pull one apart you should be able to read what the cells are.

    The more I think about it the more I would recommend the 2300c or a 270/280c upgraded with that board as the 2300c can take a laptop SCSI (super hard to find a working one) or laptop ATA drive which is a lot easier to come by as there are lots of pulls from PC laptops out there. The reason I mention HD's is the scsi one in the 280c I pulled out first sounds like a Star Trek emergency alarm going off, it's toast...

    I've seen the Etherdocks but seems to be some question as to whether it will work on the newer Duos and whether it can support past OS 7 still it is a LOT smaller than a Dock. Since the Duo has no speaker outputs on it guess you are kind of stuck with a dock of some sort.

    Did I mention the 2400c??? <grin> It is actually a bit smaller than my 270c though ever so slightly thicker.....

    Kevin
  • by sopranojam85,

    sopranojam85 sopranojam85 Oct 20, 2008 12:19 PM in response to Niteshooter
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Oct 20, 2008 12:19 PM in response to Niteshooter
    You know, the 2400c is looking more and more attractive to me as of late......... I'm digging the ultra-compact design (albeit thick!) blended with the sound-out, 16 bit stereo out built-in, built-in 800x600 resolution, and built-in video out, along with PC Card slots for easy expandability.

    My only concern is the lack of an ethernet port. Are there ADB-Ethernet adapters out there? Or possibly PCI-ethernet adapters?
  • by Niteshooter,

    Niteshooter Niteshooter Oct 20, 2008 1:00 PM in response to sopranojam85
    Level 2 (454 points)
    Oct 20, 2008 1:00 PM in response to sopranojam85
    Given what you want to do I think that might be the better way to go. They turn up used now and then and even with G3 upgrades though they tend to start getting rather pricey at that point but at least with one of these you can have a decent amount of ram plus up to a 120GB internal HD.

    I prefer wireless on my 2400c lets me do a lot of roaming though 10T can be had through an old Global Village PowerPort Platinum Pro card which is 10T and modem.

    Just to give you an idea of relative sizes here is my 270c w PPC upgrade next to my 2400c. I had thought the 2400c was a lot thicker but in reality it is a hair or three taller and that's it.

    Plus much bigger screen supporting thousands of colours at 800x600 and a vga port on the back.



















    Kevin
  • by sopranojam85,

    sopranojam85 sopranojam85 Oct 21, 2008 6:43 AM in response to Niteshooter
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Oct 21, 2008 6:43 AM in response to Niteshooter
    VERY nice pictures, and they seem to be in excellent condition, too!

    Indeed the 2400c looks much more........ inviting than the 270c. Although I would LOVE to have a PowerBook with a track-ball -- it seems like this was one of the last PowerBooks to include the trackball built-in

    But I am still curious about the possibilities of the DuoDock II -- in reference to the NuBus slots. Heck, I'm mostly curious if the DuoDock (mini, and full-sized) give 16-bit stereo sound-out or not, for the purpose of listening to music via headphones and/or speakers. I see your comment on the full-sized dock adding VRam, but what resolution will it spit out?

    This stuff fascinates me, that's all. If I could have a Duo, and have the higher-resolution when docked, I can deal with the low-res when going portable.
  • by sopranojam85,

    sopranojam85 sopranojam85 Oct 22, 2008 10:57 AM in response to Niteshooter
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Oct 22, 2008 10:57 AM in response to Niteshooter
    OK, after much digging, I've found TONS of references. Here's what I've found out. Obviously, as far as the Duo is concerned, sound output is only possible with either the MiniDock, or the Duo Dock, or Duo Dock II.

    Question 1: Is the PowerBook Duo 2300c capable of stereo sound output?

    http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/DeveloperNotes/Macintosh_CPUs-PPC_Portable/PowerBook_Duo2300c.pdf says this:
    "Sound:
    The computer has a built-in microphone and speaker. The

    sound circuits
    provide 16-bit monaural sound input and output. "

    So.....probably not. BUT, here's one interesting caviat:

    " http://www.mail-archive.com/duolist@lists.themacintoshguy.com/msg16823.html "

    Apparently, the chip used for sound HAS pin-outs for stereo output. Likewise, according to http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/DeveloperNotes/Macintosh_CPUs-68K_Portable/PowerBook_DuoSystem.pdf , there ARE pin-outs on the 152 pin connector for stereo sound out. See page 41.

    (Page 41)
    71 SND OUT R Sound output right channel
    72 SND OUT L Sound output left channel

    However, in the same PDF, on page 108, the description of the MiniDock says these pin-outs:
    (page 108)
    70 +5V SOUND +5 V power for sound output
    72 SND OUT L Sound output left channel

    Likewise, on page 145 of the same document, the description of the DuoDock says these pin-outs:
    (page 145)
    70 +5V SOUND +5 V power for sound output
    72 SND OUT L Sound output left channel

    So, will the DuoDock II supply the stereo out? Looking at this document: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/DeveloperNotes/Macintosh_CPUs-68K_Portable/PowerBook_Duo_DockII.pdf , I see this:

    "Macintosh I/O: external HDI-30 SCSI connector, mini-DIN 4 ADB connector for mouse
    or external keyboard, two serial communication ports for modem and printer,
    monaural sound input and output, on/off switch "

    So clearly, no Apple-manufactured docks will support stereo sound out as they don't even link up with Pin 71 on the 152-pin connector.

    The other side of this issue is -- How do you make pin 71 of the 152-pin connector spit out that right channel? Is it actually outputting the right channel to pin 71 without us knowing, and Apple just has no way to access it because of limitations on the dock accessories?

    Also, anybody know of a Third Party dock that will link up to pin 71 to at least provide the hardware-connection to that right channel?

    This is getting better and better

    -callie-
  • by Niteshooter,

    Niteshooter Niteshooter Oct 23, 2008 9:17 AM in response to sopranojam85
    Level 2 (454 points)
    Oct 23, 2008 9:17 AM in response to sopranojam85
    Well I have some good news and some bad news....

    First the good news,





    My Dock II with a vram upgrade which I think is 512k will give me 832x624 in thousands of colours. I also pulled apart the dock and found that it will support an Apple 8•24 card so millions of colours at higher resolutions are possible. The dock also drives my LG LCD 19" on the test bench just fine with it's built in video. Only trick was to find my DB-25 to VGA cable.

    Now for the bad news....



    The dock does not support stereo, from the look of the leads on the MB both channels of the plug are wired together. To make matters worse, as you have discovered the 2300c is monaural only. I checked it with soundedit 16 which shows 16 bit audio but when I tested with Tech Tool Pro 2's audio test suite it greys out the left and right channel tests so me thinks you are out of luck here.

    Still the Duo is a neat Mac and the 210 and 230 are a bit thinner than the colour Duo's and with a Dock they can display in colour....

    One other thing I noticed, my converted 270c boots up a lot faster from it's scsi drive than my 2300c from it's IDE drive. Maybe time to see if a newer faster IDE drive will make things better.

    Kevin
  • by sopranojam85,

    sopranojam85 sopranojam85 Oct 23, 2008 11:30 AM in response to Niteshooter
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Oct 23, 2008 11:30 AM in response to Niteshooter
    Kevin,

    Thank you for posting these FANTASTIC photos!

    Just can't help but wonder -- why did apple include a "71st" pin, and say that this pin is meant for right channel audio? You state that you tried to do left-right channel tests via a software application, that "grayed out" on those tests...... hmm?

    Is there any way at ALL that you might be able to get a probe on pin 71, and another probe on pin 70, and attach them to a separate, test mini jack and see if any audio is coming out of that pin? That would be an amazing test, and would answer/resolve all contradictory and fuzzy answers I've seen on this issue!!

    Let me know if you have any implements/means of doing this test.... otherwise, a friend of mine MIGHT have a PowerBook 280c and MiniDock we could do the test on, but only pending that he finds the PowerBook, as it's been in storage for 10 years, we'll see.

    -Callie-
  • by Niteshooter,

    Niteshooter Niteshooter Oct 23, 2008 12:01 PM in response to sopranojam85
    Level 2 (454 points)
    Oct 23, 2008 12:01 PM in response to sopranojam85
    sopranojam85 wrote:
    Kevin,

    Thank you for posting these FANTASTIC photos!

    Just can't help but wonder -- why did apple include a "71st" pin, and say that this pin is meant for right channel audio? You state that you tried to do left-right channel tests via a software application, that "grayed out" on those tests...... hmm?

    Is there any way at ALL that you might be able to get a probe on pin 71, and another probe on pin 70, and attach them to a separate, test mini jack and see if any audio is coming out of that pin? That would be an amazing test, and would answer/resolve all contradictory and fuzzy answers I've seen on this issue!!

    -Callie-


    Um no.

    The pin spacing is to tight on the rear connector that I would say there is a great chance of shorting something out. No way to do this on the dock side.

    I'm kind of fond of my WORKING Duo's, your turn.....
  • by sopranojam85,

    sopranojam85 sopranojam85 Oct 23, 2008 1:10 PM in response to Niteshooter
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Oct 23, 2008 1:10 PM in response to Niteshooter
    lol -- Well never hurts to ask, right?

    The Duo pinouts ARE very close to each other, I just didn't know if there was a better way to access them from the dock-side, if there's a Ribbon cable involved......

    But regardless I do appreciate the pics, and the valuable info you've provided thus far, and I think that many people will benefit from this information in the future.

    As for me, I'm starting to think that maybe my money is better spent on upgrading my G3 Clamshell 300 MHz. At this point, I'm looking for a CD/RW for it, and am looking into possibly over-clocking it to 400, or 433 MHz. Although I do admire this line of PowerBooks -- this stuff fascinates me.

    -callie-
  • by Niteshooter,

    Niteshooter Niteshooter Oct 24, 2008 7:09 AM in response to sopranojam85
    Level 2 (454 points)
    Oct 24, 2008 7:09 AM in response to sopranojam85
    sopranojam85 wrote:
    lol -- Well never hurts to ask, right?

    The Duo pinouts ARE very close to each other, I just didn't know if there was a better way to access them from the dock-side, if there's a Ribbon cable involved......

    But regardless I do appreciate the pics, and the valuable info you've provided thus far, and I think that many people will benefit from this information in the future.

    As for me, I'm starting to think that maybe my money is better spent on upgrading my G3 Clamshell 300 MHz. At this point, I'm looking for a CD/RW for it, and am looking into possibly over-clocking it to 400, or 433 MHz. Although I do admire this line of PowerBooks -- this stuff fascinates me.

    -callie-


    The latching mechanism covers the slot on the dock side so it is not possible there either and would require a major strip down so no go.

    Re the clamshell, well if you like to tinker I'd snag a used Pismo..... hunt a 'dead' one down on eBay, eg one that was put in storage working and now won't boot. Simple power manager reset will bring her back from the dead in most cases. I've found them for as low as $50 and lot more fun for upgrading.

    Some info here in the PowerBook links,

    http://www.kevinomura.com/macintosh.html

    Kevin