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Holmes123

Q: Powerbook 3400c strange start-up freeze problem

Hello All,

I've tried searching for other people with this problem, but have had no luck. Maybe someone here can help me.

I just bought this PB 3400c on ebay. It has 144mb RAM, 2gb HD, OS 9.1 installed. CDROM, floppy, working main battery.

It will only start-up correctly after disconnecting main battery and unplugging cable, then plugging in again. It will also boot directly from the OS 9.1 CD.

The other times (like when I have started it up via the unplugging method just described and try to reboot it via the menu), it freezes on startup at the very beginning of the "fuel gauge" part of the startup (before any extension icons are displayed, and when there is only about 2mm of fuel gauge completed).

It always freezes like this when I try to reboot. Then when it freezes, I disconnect the main battery, unplug cable, let it sit, plug it back in, and it restarts just fine! Then I'll try to reboot (via menu), or shutdown and turn on, and it freezes again, right at the beginning of the fuel gauge window of startup.

I have tried resetting the power manager, resetting the PRAM, reinstalling OS 9.1, and reinstalling OS 9.1 Clean Install. All re-installs of OS 9.1 result in crashing either at or before it was crashing prior to the re-install. I have tried reboot without the main battery connected, without the CD or floppy connected, with no luck. I've tried restarting with extensions disabled, but no luck.

The only thing I haven't tried is re-formatting the HD before doing a clean install. I'm not sure if this will help me.

Does anyone have any ideas? The machine works great once it has started up.

Could this be my PRAM battery? Everytime I have unplugged and reconnected and restarted, and it boots up, the time/date is midnight of 1/1/1904. Could this be the problem?

Thanks!

Message was edited by: Holmes123

Powerbook 3400c, Mac OS 9.1.x, 144mb, 2gb

Posted on Dec 16, 2008 6:15 PM

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Q: Powerbook 3400c strange start-up freeze problem

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  • by jpl,Helpful

    jpl jpl Dec 16, 2008 8:04 PM in response to Holmes123
    Level 7 (28,285 points)
    Dec 16, 2008 8:04 PM in response to Holmes123
    Holmes,

    You do have a hardware problem but it is not the HD.

    Try this procedure: When you want to cold start, leave both the battery and power adapter connected. To start, first press the power manager reset button on the back panel, then the power button. When restarting, press the reset button on the back panel and see if it will restart normally.

    You are actually performing a power manager and PRAM reset when you disconnect the power adapter and remove the main battery because your PRAM battery (internal rechargeable backup battery is either discharged or dead, thus cannot maintain settings without any power.

    The power manager reset indicates you have either lost your backside L2 cache or you have a bad microprocessor or a bad logic board.

    Download Newer Gauge Pro 1.1 here and see if it reports on your L2 cache:
    http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/4512
  • by Holmes123,

    Holmes123 Holmes123 Dec 17, 2008 9:15 AM in response to jpl
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 17, 2008 9:15 AM in response to jpl
    jpl,

    Thanks for the suggestions.

    The reason I thought it might be because of my HD setup was because I can consistently boot and reboot from the CD (OS 9.1 CD).

    I tried using the reset button on the back when the machine froze. I tried pressing it (which causes the machine to turn off), then the power button -> same thing, freezes during startup. I tried holding the reset button for 30 seconds, then power button -> same thing.

    I didn't quite understand your directions with rebooting. I think you said when rebooting, press the reset button. Did you mean press the reset button WHILE the machine is booting up (while the HD is loading stuff)? I tried that, but no use. Or did you mean press the reset button when I'm in the OS and want to reboot?

    I downloaded the Gauge PRO, and it said on the Summary tab "Level 2 Cache: 256k at 40.0 mHz (motherboard)". On the Processor tab it said "CPU L2 Cache: none."

    I was a bit confused about this.

    Thanks.
  • by jpl,Helpful

    jpl jpl Dec 17, 2008 11:10 AM in response to Holmes123
    Level 7 (28,285 points)
    Dec 17, 2008 11:10 AM in response to Holmes123
    Holmes,

    Sorry for the confusing reply...I have a talent for writing them.

    Regarding the report by Gauge Pro: The L2 report may be due to the way the powerbook is built. All 3400's have their CPU soldered to the logic board (motherboard) and the L2 cache is also soldered to the logic board. The Wallstreet powerbooks have a separate microprocessor (CPU) board and the L2 cache is soldered to it. So when you clicked on the Processor tab, it found no L2 cache. Once you are booted to 9.x on the HD, open the Apple System Profiler under the Apple menu and check the L2 report there. I don't believe the MacOS 9.x CD has the Apple System Profiler in its boot System Folder...just Chooser and Startup Disk control panels.

    In summary, it sounds like you do have your L2 cache.

    "It will also boot directly from the OS 9.1 CD."

    I did not realize that you could cold start and restart to the 9.x CD without the elaborate procedure needed to boot the HD. Since your 3400 freezes as specific extensions and control panels start to load (the fuel gauge), try this startup procedure: When cold starting or restarting, press/hold the 'shift' key until you see the message "Extensions Off'. This will allow only the basic OS to load. I suggest this because the bootable 9.x CD also only loads a basic OS and you apparently have no issue booting to it.

    If this procedure works, and you are booted to the HD, go to the Apple menu > Control Panels > Extension Manager and turn OFF all extensions and control panels (there should be a drop-down menu above the list with this option). Now try a normal restart.

    I cannot answer why resetting the powerbook (removing all power) allows 9.x on the HD to boot with its extensions and control panels; again I would suggest this is a hardware issue. Let's forget about resetting the power manager at this point and see what turns up with the above suggestions.
  • by Holmes123,

    Holmes123 Holmes123 Dec 18, 2008 10:04 AM in response to jpl
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 18, 2008 10:04 AM in response to jpl
    jpl,

    I have tried booting with "extensions off" by holding down the "shift" key until the message "Extensions Off" appears in the startup window. It doesn't have any effect. It still freezes when the fuel gauge is about 2-3 mm long (at the very beginning).

    It's the darndest thing. I can boot anytime, consistently when booting from the CD. When I try to re-install the OS from the CD (I have tried a regular reinstall and a clean reinstall with the same results), I keep getting this strange "need-to-unplug-before-booting" thing when trying to start off the HD.

    Someone else suggested reformatting the HD and installing. Do you think it could be my PRAM battery? I've been racking my brain trying to think of what is different when you totally power down (by unplugging) and warm booting.

    By the way, I've tried the reset button in all variations. Pressing it when I freeze to turn the machine off, then trying the power button -> same freeze. Pressing it when the machine is off to boot -> same freeze. I've tried holding it in for 30-seconds -> no effect.

    I thought about possibly copying the "System Folder" from the OS 9.1 CD to the HD and then trying to boot off the HD.

    Thanks again for all your help so far. Any other suggestions?

    Message was edited by: Holmes123

    Message was edited by: Holmes123
  • by jpl,

    jpl jpl Dec 19, 2008 10:02 AM in response to Holmes123
    Level 7 (28,285 points)
    Dec 19, 2008 10:02 AM in response to Holmes123
    Holmes,

    Sorry for your continuing problems...

    Although it does not sound like the HD is involved (only because a "reset" allows a normal boot), I would cover all bases and reformat. This is how I would check the HD:

    1. Boot to your 9.x CD.

    2. Go to the Disk Utilities folder on the CD, not the HD, and launch Drive Setup.

    3. Select 'Initialization Options' and check the box for 'zero all data', then select MacOS Extended Format. This zeroing will take some time.

    4. When initialized, select 'Test Disk'. This will read/write to every sector; any problems will be reported. If it fails Test Disk, re-zero again and test again. If it fails a second time, the HD may be the problem.

    5. Reinstall OS.

    When you have first launched Drive Setup, Drive Setup Help is available from the menu bar.

    The PRAM battery (internal rechargeable backup battery) is not causing this problem.
  • by Holmes123,

    Holmes123 Holmes123 Dec 23, 2008 7:02 PM in response to jpl
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 23, 2008 7:02 PM in response to jpl
    jpl,

    So I reformatted the HD as you described. The disk test did not find any errors. I reinstalled OS 9.1 without updating the HD drivers (like recommended by the instructions on the CD for a Powerbook 3400).

    It still does not work. It's even worse. It freezes even earlier now, on the "smiling mac" icon. Plus, when I cold boot, it doesn't even work. I tried warm booting, unplugging, using the reset button. Nothing makes the HD boot now.

    Help!
  • by jpl,

    jpl jpl Jan 1, 2009 11:49 AM in response to Holmes123
    Level 7 (28,285 points)
    Jan 1, 2009 11:49 AM in response to Holmes123
    Holmes,

    I have been traveling, thus the non-attendance here. I don't know if you have found a solution or are still stymied, but I did want to reply to your last post.

    Zeroing the HD will not have caused any additional problems and Test Disk apparently finds the HD healthy. I have no answer as to why starting to the HD stalls even earlier now in the startup process.

    Is the MacOS 9.1 CD a retail disk (white background with a big orange '9') or a machine specific OS 9.1 that shipped with a new computer or are you using the MacOS 9.1 Update burned on a CD?

    Regarding the HD driver:

    "PowerBook 3400s running Mac OS 9.04
    If you are installing Mac OS 9.1 on a PowerBook 3400 running Mac OS 9.04, you must perform the installation without updating your hard disk drivers or you may experience a hang during installation. To prevent the Installer from updating your hard disk drivers, click Options in the Install Software panel of the Mac OS 9.1 Installer and deselect the option to update your hard disk drivers."

    The above warning was part of the downloadable MacOS 9.1 Update:
    http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75103

    Since it specifically mentions OS 9.0.4 as the installed OS on the HD, this warning may only apply to 9.0.4. The Updates install differently than from a bootable CD and the newer HD driver in the OS 9.1 Update apparently conflicts with the existing HD driver during the installation and/or restart to finish up the install.

    I would try this: Boot to your 9.1 CD, find the Utilities folder on the CD, launch Drive Setup, then select Update Driver and restart to the HD. I suggest this since the existing HD driver may be corrupt and causing the stall.
  • by Grant Bennet-Alder,

    Grant Bennet-Alder Grant Bennet-Alder Jan 1, 2009 12:43 PM in response to jpl
    Level 9 (60,884 points)
    Desktops
    Jan 1, 2009 12:43 PM in response to jpl
    It freezes even earlier now, on the "smiling mac" icon.


    The small smiling Mac \[SE] Icon says your Mac found Boot Blocks with a good checksum on the chosen Startup Disk. Among other things, the Boot Blocks contain the Driver to be used for the running OS.

    A crash or hang immediately thereafter is a strong indication that the driver is damaged, and an "Update Driver" will be needed. I generally go with the latest available, but I have never owned a PowerBook 3400.
  • by Holmes123,

    Holmes123 Holmes123 Jan 1, 2009 10:05 PM in response to jpl
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 1, 2009 10:05 PM in response to jpl
    jpl - I figured you were out of town, since it's that time of year. Thanks for getting back to me.

    The CD I have is a red one with a big "9" on it. It has "memorex" printed around the central hub. It looks like a bootleg copy of a 9.1 CD. It came with one of the other vintage macs I bought a while ago (that was also a 3400). I don't know how to tell if it's for a specific mac model, or if it is the general install CD. I don't believe it's the update burned onto a CD, since I was able to use it to install the OS onto a totally clean HD.

    I tried updating the driver, the little window in the "Drive Setup" utility said "Driver Updated", and a window popped up saying I would need to reboot to see the changes. I rebooted, and it looks just the same - it freezes with the "smiling mac".

    Grant - thanks for the input, too

    Message was edited by: Holmes123
  • by Holmes123,

    Holmes123 Holmes123 Jan 10, 2009 4:32 PM in response to Holmes123
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 10, 2009 4:32 PM in response to Holmes123
    Do you think it is that the CD I have is unreliable since we don't know what's on it? Should I buy an official general install OS 9.1 CD? I didn't know they were that specific.

    As I said, this CD came with an old powerbook I bought off eBay. I never used it before. It's been sitting on my shelf since I got it, and until you asked what disk I was using, I didn't realize it wasn't an official one, since I do not have much experience with Macs.

    If it's not a reliable CD, then I can just get rid of it. I tried looking for "OS 9.1" on the apple site, but it doesn't look like it is sold anymore. Should I comb eBay for one? What do I need to look for to make sure I don't get another bum CD?
  • by jpl,

    jpl jpl Jan 11, 2009 12:02 PM in response to Holmes123
    Level 7 (28,285 points)
    Jan 11, 2009 12:02 PM in response to Holmes123
    Holmes123,

    I still believe you have a hardware problem. The method used to get the 3400 up and running as described in your first post indicates this; something was being reset when all power was removed.

    Regarding the 9.1 CD: It is obviously a copy of a MacOS 9.1 CD but that in itself does not mean it is bad. Boot to the 9.1 CD, find the System Folder on the CD that is used for booting, open the System Folder and perform a 'Get Info' on the Finder and System file (suitcase); they should both report Version 9.1 or earlier.

    Now find the System Folder on your HD installed by the CD and perform the same task. See if there are any discrepancies.

    While booted to the CD, find the Utilities folder on the CD, launch Disk First Aid and run it against the HD...see if anything turns up.

    Your 2.0GB HD is probably OEM since the 3400 came with 1.3GB, 2.0GB, and 3.0GB sizes depending on the CPU MHz, thus it is 11 years old. It is difficult to point to any specific piece of hardware, e.g. HD or logic board. However, zeroing the HD seems to have made a change for the worse; this procedure, if anything, should improve the HD's performance by removing any bad blocks and correcting any low-level corruption. The 'Test Disk' in Drive Setup gave it a clean bill of health, so I cannot explain what happened.

    I guess if I were in your position, I would replace the HD, but I can't give you any solid reason why; your symptoms could also be explained by a faulty a logic board. Let's see what turns up with the above suggestions.
  • by jpl,

    jpl jpl Jan 11, 2009 12:04 PM in response to Holmes123
    Level 7 (28,285 points)
    Jan 11, 2009 12:04 PM in response to Holmes123
    Holmes123,

    By the way, here is the manual for the 3400:
    http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=50024
  • by Holmes123,

    Holmes123 Holmes123 Jan 12, 2009 8:07 PM in response to jpl
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 12, 2009 8:07 PM in response to jpl
    OK. Thanks for the suggestions.