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106018 Views 200 Replies Latest reply: Oct 18, 2010 3:33 PM by NiqueT
Currently Being ModeratedJan 21, 2009 8:02 AM (in response to thoughtcryme)
Are you feeling victimized or something?
Cause I can't help but notice that you're starting to advise others to give up completely.
No, I'm not feeling victimized, but I don't have the answer to this issue.
Whoopy posted a working(albeit temporary) solution that may work for some people but not others.
Where he set the boot argument to 1 cpu which allowed the system to boot and stopped the crashes.
On 1 CPU, but still, it boots and doesn't constantly crash.
Which seems to be how mine is working too.
Except I didn't set the boot args.
In my experience running on one CPU was slow, unstable & quickly became un-bootable. Others have also said it didn't work for them too. Whoopy hasn't been back since the 'fix' post either so it's difficult to say how well it worked for him. I used the boot args command, and it didn't help me. My G5 would boot with one CPU on it's own, depending on the temp (and time since last use). If it works for you then I am pleased for you, I fear it is just buying you a little time. For me it was less than a week.
I have backups of all my data.
I only have 1 Mac though.
And I don't have regular access to another Mac to just go and backup my HDD's.
I also have projects that I have to do something with.
So I have no other choice right now but to continue using it in this state.
Keep the backups, and consider that booting on one CPU could cause corruption to the data on disk.
I was in a similar position, I had my dying G5 and an old G4 that I couldn't use for work. I also had projects to get finished. I was lucky enough to borrow a Mac Book from a charity I work for.
After banging my head against Apple saying it's not their fault or responsibility I eventually 'gave up' and brought a Mac Mini. It's not as powerful as the G5, but it will slowly crunch through Motion & Final Cut Pro. I can't afford anything better at the moment. Fixing the G5 is not an option at the price Apple wants for a logic board and/ or CPU(s).
And yes, I understand it's not likely they will do anything.
So there's no glimmer of hope here for you to crush.
Seriously, is that what you think I'm here to do? I thought I was trying to help.
<Edited by Moderator>Mac OS X (10.5.5)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 21, 2009 9:07 AM (in response to thoughtcryme)agreed!
ive called apple at least once a week since the problem showed up with my G5. I get the same run around each time..but ive got case numbers! make sure if you call, get your case number.. i learned that they wont give you that number unless you ask for it.G5 Dual 2.0ghz, Mac OS X (10.5.5)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 21, 2009 2:10 PM (in response to Drew Reece (Re:co))I'm with you Drew,
People who are posting anew to this topic seem to be thinking they will find a good or temporarily good solution to their problems here. From reading the many posts it's clear that you did everything yourself more than that a reasonable mac owner would do, and as we both know, in the end, you bought your machine a little more time, but that was it. That is what this thread is about, the persistent failure of G5s, with special awareness on the liquid cooled models.
But while there may be a chance that the scenarios above aren't the same as for everyone visiting here, the obvious fact stands out that if a persons G5 has entered these stages then it is in free fall to an early death. Unless of course, if they have the money to put out for the parts they need replaced. But on ones own without the proper resources, when your CPUs start dropping out, kernel panics galore, failures to boot except for elaborate methods that then stop working... your Mac is in its death throes.
Call Apple and call again. I think they are trying to boost the image of their customer relations department. In the beginning it was unexcelled, customer and business world wise. For some years now though Apples CS and Tech Supports reputation has really took a plunge. There are signs here and there that they may trying to change that now. Just in the last few months I've heard of more people getting their macs fixed free or, best case maybe, given a MacPro. There is a new chat feature in the Support pages.
I say with what we know from experience and reading about other's, that we now pretty much understand the obvious, our G5s were, and are, fines machines. So much so that many don't see a pressing need for an IntelMac.
But, I think, had we all known when buying a G5 that's its estimated life span was three years and sometimes longer, we wouldn't be nearly as upset as we are today. The questions are when Apple knew that problems were arising, what did they try to do to fix them, and what was their ultimate solution?
Well, early after making them (from most accounts) for the first, nothing too meaningful on the second, but on the last, they went Intel.
My point being that Apple shares your pain. In retrospect I expect they would have done things differently, at least giving out announced steps that might forestall a major catastrophe, like keeping the mac especially cool and dust free. Advocating shut down over sleeping or leaving on.
But the bottom is, while Apple knows and is sorry about all this, that their multi-thousand dollar, top of the line, desktop workstations die after about three years, they are not going to do anything for everyone at large. Individually you have to flood their customers service numbers explaining your loyalty and asking what they are going to do for you. Hey, it's what a car owner would do if the rear axle on a certain car of his kept falling off after 3 years and read it was happening to others too.
Apple Customer Relations at 1-800-767-2775G5Quad 2.5, 16gb ram, 7800gtx, VR array/striped, Mac OS X (10.5.6), electron22blueIV, 20"cinema display, iPod touch
Currently Being ModeratedJan 21, 2009 8:59 PM (in response to Samsara)I agree with you Samsara.
5 years from here, if you remember, there was a processor speed race between Apple and WIntel. Computer makers workhorse was speed that time. That race is over since Apple switched to Intel. One reason was that there was so much heat problems due to those increasing speeds that a physical limit was reached. Do you wonder why the 2.7 Ghz CPUs are liquid cooled?. Heat. No G5 chip for laptops was ever sold, for the same reason.
We are talking about high Technology. The dual core IBM PowerPC 970FX G5 uses 90 nm technology. It's State of the art...
I own some old State of the Arts Macs: a SE/30; a Quadra 950 Power PC upgraded, a G4 Quicksilver and those machines still work perfectly, even after 15 years for the oldest ones. And what about that State of the Art G5?.
I bought one G5 Dual 2GHz second hand knowing it was to repair. I was confident in fixing it. Because of the machines I own. They are reliable. But today I measure I was wrong. Because the repair is beyond the cost I will put in it, and also because there is a more delicate problem. Something has changed in the way Apple built the G5. I can't see another reason for all those user's machines here and there being out of order after 3 or 4 years only.
And do you know why?.
First, because since several years European Community for environmental reasons enforced through the RoHS directive, the suppression of lead in good old solder, among other substances.
The usual mix of tin and lead, the best alloy is suddenly banned from every electronic appliance. And if you read that linked document you'll find that there's is still a search going on to find the right mix to avoid the numerous problems caused by the suppression of lead in solders.
So, on one side Apple and IBM design and build state of the Arts chips and computers and on the other side a politic decision suppress lead even if no efficient substitution alloy exists.
As a whole it's like shooting a bullet in one's foot. It's nonsense...
Second, because the main chips of the G5 computer: CPUs, Northbridge(U3) and Southbridge, are soldered to the board through a ball grid array BGA (1183 soldered contacts between the chips and the boards).
High technology here also. But those ball grid arrays are delicate and don't like thermal expansion fatigue. I suppose you've read about the Red Ring of Death in Microsoft XBox 360. The CPU in that game console is also a PowerPC (3,2 GHz) and it also uses ball grid arrays.
Heat is a problem and overheating made some of those numerous contacts break.
Microsoft extended its warranty in response to that problem. It's a fact.
Now, my machine boots perfectly, and not only mine, for a limited time and with both CPUs when I bring heat with a hair dryer upon the back of the U3 chip (between RAM slots and CPUs on the backside of the board). It boots. It works!!!. Nothing a software problem. Only the concurrence of three problems: heat, lead free solder, ball grid arrays. Why heating that zone brings back machines to life?. Experts should give answers.
Anyhow, we have sufficient proofs of the cause of the problem, because we know how to make our machines start. As if they were new.
I believe repairing is possible. Unsolder and resolder the chips on the boards is possible, we'll need a +dedicated rework station+ to do that, I don't know how much the cost of such an operation will be and who is able to do it. It should be cheaper than a new board and maybe will last longer. So this is a possible workaround...
Replace parts?. A new motherboard sold by Apple is 1000$. CPUs prices are about the same. Nobody will spend that money for only 3 more years to go.
So sooner or later exit PowerMac G5 computers. Trash it and buy a new one...
Now some people at Apple know about what's going on. They even know more than all of us.
The G5 is not the only problematic machine they made. There are some other "sick" machines in Apple's history...
I don't know if they will bring support to us, maybe yes if we all make sufficient noise and we are a lot, for I believe every PowerMac G5 machine is prone to fail, sooner or later.
In time, whatever Apple endorse the problem or not, everyone of us will know those State of the Arts G5 machines only lived 3 years. Something to remember...
You're right asking to put pressure on Apple Customer's services. The problem is not solved, and some of us don't have a computer to work with now. Apple is a billion dollars company, and has to decide if it wants to keep its customers. And sometimes it's not free...
A lucky one already had his machine replaced with a brand new MacPro... I hope the others will get something more than a nice box. This story is not over...
JeffSpare parts of G5DP2G, Mac OS X (10.5.6)
Currently Being ModeratedFeb 4, 2009 6:04 PM (in response to wrbmonster)... that's what my G5 - 2GHz has become. I noticed the symptoms last night. My gut sank, found this thread. It is quite a paperweight now. Will start talking to Apple tomorrow morning.
Has anyone had any success resolving this issue short of dishing out the cash for parts and labour?
Except for that one lucky sob that got a new rig.
Cheers.G5 2ghz, Mac OS X (10.4.11)
Currently Being ModeratedFeb 5, 2009 10:57 AM (in response to Ijon Tichy the Nth)Well Well Well. My Dual 1.8 ghz is in the shop right now for the same problem you guys are all talking about. I had it in the local Apple shop last week and they ran a bunch of tests but couldn't figure anything out and said it seemed to be fairly stable. I picked it up Monday and wammo. Same deal after being on for just minutes. It is now back at the shop and they are doing more tests but figure it is either a logic board or processor.
The sad thing is this happens not when I am doing something physically taxing on the machine so much as something simple like burning a disc or entering my Itunes id to buy some music.
I to like others am a huge Apple supporter as that is all I have run for the past 10 or 11 years now but I just cannot justify buying another one after the disappointment this one has left me. These machines are just plain to expensive to only last a couple of years.
That being said I have a g4 PowerBook that is about 6 years old and it runs like a dream. I haven't had to do much to it other than some small things but I would expect the same or much more out of a machine I paid much more for that is not as old and meant to do much more.
I hope Apple is watching and they had some sort of solution on the way quick, very quick.
DissatisfiedApple PowerBook G4, Apple PowerMac G5 Dual 1.8 ghz, Mac OS X (10.4.11)
Currently Being ModeratedFeb 10, 2009 3:01 PM (in response to JeffDy)I called Apple yesterday and explained how my three year old (January 2006) Dual 2.0 G5 went south on me and had been diagnosed my a genius at the Apple store as having a bad board. I have heard of people getting their out of warranty G5's repaired for free using Apple's 'Exception Code' so I tired my luck. I spoke with 4 customer service reps and supervisors and all of them turned me down flat. "Your computer is two years out of warranty and has never been repaired because of that we can't justify repairing it with an exception code.
This morning I received an e-mail from Apple wanting me to complete a survey about my customer service experience. Here is what I wrote.
"I bought a Dual 2.0 G5 in January of 2006. It performed flawlessly up until one day a month or so ago when the computer would not turn on. All I got was a black screen and after a couple of minutes the fans went into HIGH SPEED TURBO mode.
I took the computer to the Apple Store in King of Prussia, Pa and after trying to couple of things (reseating the RAM, trying to reset the PRAM etc....) the genius diagnosed my computer as having a bad logic board and/or a faulty processor. He quoted me prices of $400.00 (processor) and/or $700.00 (board) and said he would waive the labor. I took the computer with me to think it over as having to pay nearly $1,000.00 to repair a barely three year old $2,000.00 computer seemed outrageous to me.
While doing research on the problem I am having with my computer I came upon numerous web forums where an astonishing number of people are having similar issues with their 3 - 4 year old Dual 2.0 G5s.
On these forums I discovered very few of the people had their computers fixed by Apple with an 'exception code'. I contacted Apple in hopes of receiving such a code seeing as my computer has been babied and seen such light use. Ultimately every customer service rep said they were unable to help me. Only one, Lichelle, indicated that depending on how many Apple products I owned, they may be able to help me. I suppose my wife and daughter owning Ipods and me owning a G5 and a 20” Cinema Display didn't make the cut.
I bought my Apple Dual 2.0 G5 because I believed that by going with your company I was buying quality. Also, that I was buying from a company who valued their customers and wasn't like the other computer corporations. That I wouldn't be just another faceless consumer......I bought the lie. Before this incident I would never have believed that I would receive the treatment I have from Apple. I thought you were better than this.
In closing, I will tell you what I told John Griffin, the very first customer service supervisor I spoke with. I am 42 years old and I have a lot of years of computer buying ahead of me. In fact in the next 6 to 8 months alone I could be responsible for nearly $6,000.00 of Apple purchases. Before my G5 went down I had been planning on buying a laptop (I keep my G5 in a house I own that is separate from the home where I live, and this is why it saw such light use), the nice big daddy Mac with the 17” screen etc… what’s that……….nearly $2,000.00? My daughter goes to college in September and she’s going to need a computer, that little white Macbook sure looks cute, what’s that………$1,000.00? My sister is planning a new laptop purchase in the spring, back in October she asked me how I liked my Mac (she’s a PC person but is planning on switching), this was before my G5 went down so obviously I was RAVING about it, knowing my sister the laptop she would want would be, let’s say $2,000.00+. And last but not least, I am probably the last person on earth without an Ipod so I had decided I was gonna jump in and get that $250 one, the classic. The total of those Apple products adds up to approximately $6,000.00 just for the next 6 to 8 months. Now with the way I’ve been abandoned by Apple do you honestly believe I would ever spend another hard earned cent of my money buying your stuff? NO WAY!!!
So I have to ask myself, is my family going to be an Apple family? The way I see it, I have at least another 30 years of computer purchasing to do, figure in my wife and my kids (I have an 8-year old and an 18-year old, remember kids usually buy what they grew up with or what their parents used), my sister and her family (we’re an extremely close family who supports one another) as well as all of the other people I let know about what an awful experience I have had with Apple……..that adds up to a lot of lost sales on your part.
I’m an honest, LOYAL, hardworking guy and one thing that irritates me to no end is when someone tries to take advantage and get over on me. I am known for being extremely vocal, influential and inspiring about the things I like, conversely I am also known to carry a grudge AND be just as vocal and influential about things I don’t like and the people who have wronged me.
I have already contacted an Emmy award winning consumer reporter about this issue; he called me back this afternoon and was very interested in hearing my dilemma. After speaking with him, I forwarded his contact information to the ever growing number of Apple customers who have had the exact same problems with their faulty logic boards and urged them to spread the word as well. You would be surprised at just how fired up people who spend thousands of dollars on what is now essentially a doorstop can get. And thankfully in this day and age of the internet, word spreads fast. Now, you may be ok with losing thousands and thousands of dollars worth of future sales in exchange for not paying the cost for replacement and installation of a logic board (you wanted to charge me $700 so I imagine your cost on that is much, much less). You got my $2,000.00 on my initial purchase but that’s all you’re ever gonna get from me and it will be worth it to me to get on my soapbox and let everyone I come in contact with know just what your true customer service is like. I have already sent out an e-mail to all of the people in my address book, explaining my nightmare at the hands of Apple and encouraging them to support me by spreading the word and forwarding my message to all of the people in their address books and asking them to do the same. Just think, if only a fraction of those people actually take the time to forward the messages to their friends and so on and so on, this thing could actually gather some momentum!! This is gonna be fun!! Next, I go to my Facebook, Myspace and Twitter accounts and send out the same letter to all of my friends there. You would be amazed at how many friends I have there, how many friends they have and how people LOVE to support the underdog!!
You may not fix my computer put I will not allow you to take advantage of, and get over on, me without going out with a fight!!
Dennis "G5, Mac OS X (10.4.3)
Currently Being ModeratedFeb 10, 2009 6:57 PM (in response to Catoogie)Hello Dennis
Sorry to hear you have experienced the same fate as us all.
Feel free to send me the info for this reporter, or send mine to him. I am a die-hard Apple user & fan. I am floored by this treatment we are getting.
I have no idea if you can PM on this site...if not...you can drop me an email via my website - http://www.adamscross.com
Cooch2x3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon | 17" PowerBook G4 1GHz | 8GB iPhone, Mac OS X (10.5), 10GB Ram | 2GB Ram
Currently Being ModeratedFeb 11, 2009 3:49 PM (in response to Whoopy)i am in the same boat with a dead G5 and i have read that the dual 2.0 ghz machine had a failure rate of 32%..if this is true, at what point does it become a design flaw?G5 dual/2.0, Mac OS X (10.4.11), 600 gigs of space
Currently Being ModeratedMar 2, 2009 11:10 AM (in response to pixelzombie)Same here with three G5 Imacs (two at work and one at home). It seems to me that is a little too much, mainly when other macs (but a mac mini) work w/o problems after years of duty.iMac5,1, Mac OS X (10.4.9), Intel Core 2 Duo
Currently Being ModeratedMar 4, 2009 4:13 PM (in response to dieza)Add my G5 to the list, I'm using it right now but don't know how long it will last before freezing, then all the trials of trying to get it to restart.
I got one of my mid 90's Macs out of the closet and have been using it to play games to console myself about my G5 problems. It still works fine and never had anything done to it and was in use up until 2005.
When I bought the G5 I thought it would outlive it's usefullness like my other Macs have and end up in my closet archive. It was fine for 3 1/2 years then suddenly it has the same problems everyone else here is having. I sure never expected this from a Mac.PowerMac G5, Mac OS X (10.4.11)
Currently Being ModeratedMar 15, 2009 1:13 AM (in response to Whoopy)wow. I feel like throwing up.
After years of fighting PCs I bought a used G5 on ebay. My first mac!It was awesome! I loved it- for about 10 days...
Now only one processor shows up when it finally boots. How disappointing. Guess its back to my PC. My short-lived enthusiasm for apple seems to have vanished.g5, Mac OS X (10.5.6)
Currently Being ModeratedMar 26, 2009 5:45 AM (in response to dkkeefer)So I have just had my Dual 2Ghz in for diagnostics again, and the verdict is a bad processor socket, so they will have to change the logicboard.
Spoke to apple support with a guy from their "repair exception" department, but it was a no go. They would not help out because the machine is "late '04" so there's nothing they could do. So now I have a nice aluminium doorstop....G5 Dual 2Ghz 4.5Gb Ram, Mac OS X (10.5.2)
Currently Being ModeratedApr 2, 2009 4:59 PM (in response to Whoopy)Count me in, too. My Dual 2GHz G5 (late 2004) has suddenly gone flooey, right at the moment I installed some pricey new Samsung RAM. Kernel panics, fans a-blowing, no boot. I reseated the two new RAM modules, restarted, and panic again. Long story short is that now, after much swapping and zapping and resetting, etc., even the small bit of extra RAM installed 4 years ago, when I first got this machine, is no longer getting recognized, so i am back to measly original 512MB. I feel like the guy who owned a BMW, sprang for some fancy new tires, and suddenly saw his engine lose 7 of 8 cylinders.
I used a Biege G3 for 7 years, no problem at all. This machine seems to be dying at 4 years or less, judging by the growing volume of complaints in these Apple Discussions.
It is not right, and it does not feel right. Am I really to believe Apple is going to let this happen, especially to those of us customers who have spent the most and, with our high-end machines, are clearly the most devoted to the brand and the gear? We even bought our machines only to find out weeks later that they were an evolutionary dead-end, as Apple switched to Intel processors.
I don't have any great answers to the technical problems we're experiencing. I did notice that over at MacWorld, there is a long, 30-plus-page discussion about these G5 logic boards dying and the belief there is that it stems from Apple's having switched to lead-free (and therefore less hardy) solder just as the PPC processors took a leap in heat output. One guy has figured out how to get his machine running again by applying a hair dryer to the logic board.G5 Power Mac Dual 2GHz, Mac OS X (10.4.11)
Currently Being ModeratedMay 5, 2009 12:21 PM (in response to Whoopy)Count me in as well.
Done the whole lot as well, PRAM, NVRAM, RAM, Battery, AGP, rain dance, holding breath, facing north etc.
Even pulled out the PSU, and both CPU's for dusting, just to find that they were almost spotless. Tested voltages on PSU, they were fine.
After reinstall, G5 ran for 5 minutes, froze, fans went blazing, settled down after 5-10mins, ran for 2mins more, fans went again, unrecoverable, poked logic board screen went blue, pulled plug after 30mins of turbo fans.
Restart, no white LED light, no monitor, just fans. Sad owner :o(
Have a G4 iBook that went quirky after the 10.4.11 update. Had lots of problems but eventually resolved after reinstalling updates several times. Maybe there are PPC firmware bombs in the updates? (enter twilight zone music here!)
I actually work for an electronics company where we have a reflow oven. I'll have a look at the possibilities of running the CPU's and logic board through it. Need to have a good look at them beforehand though. Not too fond of PCB's with BGA components on them. Can be problematic if there are too many voids in the solder.
Will check to see if the solder is indeed RoHS, have a suspicion the G5 was made before the directive was in place.
Not something I'd recommend, but definitely worth trying..... good fun nonetheless. Will post back when results are known.
CK3510XXXXXiBook G4, G5 DP 2.0GHz door stop, Mac OS X (10.4.11)