1 2 3 Previous Next 194 Replies Latest reply: Jun 12, 2013 1:41 PM by Grant Bennet-Alder
John Galt Level 8 Level 8 (36,395 points)
This article alleges that the release of Snow Leopard will end support for Appletalk.

Like WDS, it seems Appletalk is a protocol that Apple wishes would just go away on its own. Unfortunately I use it for two of my printers. When Apple discontinues the few lines of code that drive Appletalk, they'll have to add to a landfill's population.

I am not hopeful that anything the user community can do will save this unfortunate victim of progress, but it's worth a try:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

Powerbooks  iMacs  iPods  Airports  Appletalk printers , Mac OS X (10.4.11),  24 years Apple!  "it's" means "it is"  "lose" is a verb  "loose" isn't
  • 1. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    varjak paw Level 10 Level 10 (169,765 points)
    You can ask, but trust me, Apple's been working to phase out AppleTalk for years, so if they've finally decided to pull the plug, they're not going to change their minds. Most printers that support AppleTalk can also support TCP/IP, and those that can't are now many years old. It's unfortunate that some printers will indeed need to get junked (though I would bet that the number of AppleTalk-only printers still in use with Intel-based Macs are relatively few), but time and technology don't stand still.

    And BTW, AppleTalk is thousands of lines of code, not a "few lines".
  • 2. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    John Galt Level 8 Level 8 (36,395 points)
    It's not that I don't trust you, and the "few lines" comment was meant to be rhetorical. What's a few thousand lines of code in millions The point is that Appletalk works, so why get rid of it? If the enterprise market doesn't want to support it, they don't have to.
    Dave Sawyer wrote:
    ... those that can't are now many years old.

    Twenty years old to be exact, yet like my ten year old iMac they stubbornly refuse to quit working. My Imagewriter II runs forever on a $5 ribbon, and my HP LaserJet 4MP is still on its first cartridge. By comparison, inkjets are wildly expensive, wasteful, and prone to trouble. There are no more manufacturers of quality laser printers like the early HPs. They're all cheap, disposable junk targeted for the similarly cheap, disposable PC market. Such is the price of progress.

    Like I say, I'm not hopeful. Apple isn't going to keep Appletalk around just for Galt's Gulch. But for all of Apple's "green" marketing, it seems to me the "greenest" printer is one that stays out of the junkyard.
  • 3. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    varjak paw Level 10 Level 10 (169,765 points)
    What's a few thousand lines of code in millions

    Those thousands of lines still involve lots of work.

    The point is that Appletalk works, so why get rid of it?

    Primarily it would be the engineering effort it would take to port AppleTalk to Snow Leopard and develop a 64-bit version. Given that AppleTalk is, as a viable protocol with industry support, dead, I very much doubt that Apple will feel that continued support is worth the cost of continued development and support.

    Again, you can submit your feedback to Apple. But I think the chances are nil.
  • 4. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    Limnos Level 8 Level 8 (38,475 points)
    I can see both sides of this. I am completely supportive of your stance regarding old equipment. I can also see that it would be a degree of effort to perpetuate some old compatibilities, especially with hardware having changed pretty radically with the advent of Intel Macs. We had to say goodbye to Classic not long ago and this is just a minor repeat.

    I'll tell you a story about a car and let you read into it what you want. I drive a 28 year old Toyota (30 mpg highway!) and haven't bought a car since getting this one used in 1987 -- 22 years ago. After 20 years they don't have to stock parts any more which makes running a 28 year old car even harder. I don't think Toyota as a corporation would be very happy if nobody had bought cars from them in 28 years and are probably relieved with the 20 year policy. I can see that some day something minor but essential like a turn signal relay will break which will basically total an otherwise good car. I'll have to buy a new car and Toyota stockholders will be very, very happy (assuming I buy a Toyota as a replacement) that finally I had to go out and buy another car.
  • 5. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    Grant Bennet-Alder Level 8 Level 8 (49,275 points)
    These are Postscript level 2 printers that do not support LPR/LPD. All these printers are LocalTalk printers. Except for those marked (Ethernet) they also need a converter from AppleTalk-over-Ethernet to AppleTalk/LocalTalk to print from Macs newer than the Beige G3 and with Mac OS X.

    Personal LaserWriter NTR
    Personal LaserWriter 320
    LaserWriter Select 360
    LaserWriter 4/600 PS

    LaserWriter IIf
    LaserWriter IIg (Ethernet)
    LaserWriter Pro 600
    LaserWriter Pro 630 (Ethernet)

    Apple LaserWriter Printers with Ethernet and Built-in LPD:

    LaserWriter 8500 (Ethernet)
    LaserWriter 12/640 PS (Ethernet)
    Color LaserWriter 12/660 PS (Ethernet)
    Color LaserWriter 12/600 PS (Ethernet)
    LaserWriter 16/600PS (Ethernet)
    LaserWriter Pro 810 (Ethernet)
  • 6. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    Grant Bennet-Alder Level 8 Level 8 (49,275 points)
    These Printers are Postscript level 1 printers that can be identified and used under the Linux-Foundation Postscript level 1 driver. All these printers are AppleTalk/LocalTalk printers.They also need a converter from AppleTalk-over-Ethernet to AppleTalk/LocalTalk to print in Macs without a round serial/LocalTalk port and/or Macs running Mac OS X.

    http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/OpenPrinting/MacOSX/pslevel1#Printers

    LaserWriter
    LaserWriter Plus
    LaserWriter IINT
    LaserWriter IINTX
    Personal LaserWriter NT
  • 7. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    Grant Bennet-Alder Level 8 Level 8 (49,275 points)
    The others that are still viable today are the Appletalk-option-card equipped:

    ImageWriter II
    ImageWriter LQ.

    They also need a converter from AppleTalk-over-Ethernet to AppleTalk/LocalTalk.
  • 8. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    John Galt Level 8 Level 8 (36,395 points)
    Limnos wrote:
    ... some day something minor but essential like a turn signal relay will break which will basically total an otherwise good car.

    You can always signal a turn by sticking your arm out the window, but the other nincomboobs on the road won't have a clue what you mean

    I realize that was intended as a trivial example, but it's easier now than it's ever been to troubleshoot and repair minor annoyances that would have rendered a car, computer, or any other appliance obsolete just a few years ago. As long as the car isn't terribly rare, chances are that there is someone else who has already encountered, solved, and posted about whatever problem that might arise, complete with color pictures and links to parts sources.

    If it weren't for the resources on this forum (and Google) I might have given up on these printers already.

    I don't think Toyota as a corporation would be very happy if nobody had bought cars from them in 28 years ...


    Planned obsolescence certainly has its place as a means in an expanding economy, but it requires an expanding economic base to remain an effective plan for business growth. Without the ability to replace them, Cuba has kept old American cars running for decades. Even if capitalism weren't under attack, it's likely that consumers won't continue to enjoy the ability to continually replace their stuff with the cheap junk that China sends in exchange for the US's increasingly worthless currency. Consumer spending has kept an ailing economy afloat for a few years, but that party ended a long time ago. Meanwhile there is absolutely no hint of any government policy to stimulate private business and economic prosperity. The exact opposite climate prevails, as it has in other socialist Utopias, and it hasn't worked well in them.

    Appletalk may be a moot point for me. All the Apple computers I've ever bought still function. For all the PC fanboys who denigrate Macs for costing more, when you realize their economic life is at least twice as long as a PC their cost becomes trivial. My iMac DV SE has certainly reached the limit of its upgradability, but it still does everything I need a computer to do and it stubbornly refuses to quit. Its initial cost plus memory and HD upgrades distributed over ten years minus its present salvage value is about $130 / year. My HP laser printer cost over $1000 in 1992. That was a lot of money, but the printer is built like a tank, and over a seventeen year life it's peanuts.

    Arguably, the factors that eventually make an Apple computer functionally obsolete is a desire to use them for reasons that didn't even exist when they were built. Despite their longevity, Apple has been wildly successful at marketing to people who want the better features that come with their new computers.

    On the other hand, all I've ever wanted do with my printers is print. No Appletalk is a reason for me to not buy a new Mac. That shouldn't be.

    I can't seem to kill my old Toyota either But you don't have to buy a new one - let someone else pay the thousands of dollars of depreciation that occurs as soon as it leaves the dealer's lot. Buy another six year old car today and keep it till 2031. By then your only option may be the modern day version of those great government successes such as the Trabant, or Lada, or this:

  • 9. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    Tom Ostertag Level 1 Level 1 (10 points)
    Grant:

    I have a LaserWriter Pro 630 printer connected to my network. Could you tell me what converter you are talking about?

    "Except for those marked (Ethernet) they also need a converter from AppleTalk-over-Ethernet to AppleTalk/LocalTalk to print from Macs newer than the Beige G3 and with Mac OS X"

    Thanks,

    Tom Ostetag
  • 10. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    varjak paw Level 10 Level 10 (169,765 points)
    He's talking about devices such as the AsantePrint or the Farallon iPrint. These allow you to connect a LocalTalk-only printer to a Mac that only has Ethernet.

    Regards.
  • 11. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    Grant Bennet-Alder Level 8 Level 8 (49,275 points)
    Tom Ostertag-

    Dave is quite right. But your LaserWriter Pro 630 HAS an AAUI Ethernet port (but does not have LPR/LPD) so it can use AppleTalk-over-Ethernet directly, but will not be useable if you convert every Mac you own to 10.6 Snow Leopard.

    If you had at least one Mac still running 10.5 or earlier, you could share that printer with the other computers on your Network and continue to print to it using Printer Sharing. The Mac doing the Sharing would accept print jobs from the other computers as long as it was powered up and running when you wanted to print.
  • 12. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    pnkaufman Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    I have a LaserWriter 16/600, which has been the (or one of the) most reliable piece of electronics I've every owned. I'd hate to give it up for OS 10.6, but I also want to get rid of Entourage!! I have a basement full of old Macs (I've kept every Mac I ever owned except for my first Mac SE and my first 68030 box--the latter is still in use by a 3-year old with all those kids programs I bought 15-17 years ago) and they all work, so using an older computer as a print server is an energy-inefficient possibility. What other solutions do I have for an "Apple LaserWriter Printers with Ethernet and Built-in LPD" under OS 10.6?
  • 13. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    Cayenne6 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    I picked up an old IBM Thinkpad A30 recently and installed Linux Mint on it. Using netatalk and PAP I was able to print to my old Personal Laserwriter 320 that uses a Farallon Ethermac iPrint LT bridge.

    If I can get Linux to see that printer, it shouldn't be impossible for 10.6 to see it. Netatalk is available for OS X already. http://netatalk.darwinports.com/

    I have several Macs that will still use that old printer and don't want to have to buy a new printer if I decide to use 10.6.

    I'm hoping someone will be able to install netatalk on 10.6 and confirm that it will work. <fingers crossed>
  • 14. Re: Snow Leopard means no more Appletalk
    Grant Bennet-Alder Level 8 Level 8 (49,275 points)
    Apple LaserWriter Printers with Ethernet and Built-in LPD:

    LaserWriter 8500 (Ethernet)
    LaserWriter 12/640 PS (Ethernet)
    Color LaserWriter 12/660 PS (Ethernet)
    Color LaserWriter 12/600 PS (Ethernet)
    LaserWriter 16/600PS (Ethernet)
    LaserWriter Pro 810 (Ethernet)

    ... can continue to be used in 10.6. Instead of printing with Appletalk, you would print with LPR/LPD. To make the switch, just delete your old printer and add it back as an LPR printer instead. If you wait until 10.6 is in place, that will be the only way to add it back.

    If you have an older printer that does not support LPR on a Mac that still supports AppleTalk, you can use the Sharing Preferences to Share this older printer with the other Macs on your network. After it is Shared, go to another Mac and add an LPR print queue (virtual printer) that forwards the print jobs to the Shared Printer.
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