HDV Tape comparison

Quality tape is also less likely to shed and gum up you camera or deck heads as quickly as cheaper stuff might. If you need to save money, tape is not the place to do it.

rh

Can't really comment on specific HDV tapes but will offer up a question.

How troublesome would it be if your dubbing guy was wrong and there is a negative difference?

a. None - the images really don't matter.
b. A bit - but we can work around the dropouts and deterioration.
c. Some - the quality and time hit can be absorbed but we wouldn't be happy
d. Not acceptable - we do not wish to risk compromising anything.

Keep in mind - tape is the least expensive element in the capture chain and with the highly compressed and long GOP structure of HDV, dropouts in an I frame will propagate through the capture. HDV on tape is NOT simply a juiced version of DV.

x

I use the Sony DVM63HD tapes, and never had a problem with them. I you can get a 5 pack of them from B&H for only $45 and at only $9 a tape, that's not bad considering that one high end retailer by me sells them for $18 each but can lower it to $15 if you buy a bunch and Best Buy sells them for $23 (11.50 a tape). I agree with others in that tape is NOT the place to skip.

Now to be honest, I have used the plain mini DV tapes from time to time, but when I was filming my graduation, I certainly didn't use the cheap stuff and even used up my only Digital Master to ensure I'd have no problems, and I didn't.

-Brian

This may be of interest to you. It is a precis of a paper presnted at this year's Video Forum in London:

HDV & DV Myths

Andy Benjamin, DV Mentor, BBC DV Solutions

Myth 1 – DVCam vs. DV

• DVCam tapes v DV tapes

• Sony claim:

DVCam stock is more robust and more resistant to drop out than miniDV

• However in our experience (and we’ve seen tens of thousands of DV/DVCam tapes in the last 12 years), provided you use high quality DV stock there is no discernable difference.

• The Hunt for Britain’s Paedophiles’ shot 1200 hours on mini DV and lost only one tape, and that wasn't as a result of tape fragility.

• The biggest cause of drop out is in fact careless loading of the tape – regardless of the format.

DVCam v DV modes

• On a camera that can record in DV or DVCam modes (Z1, PD170, DSR450), there is no picture and audio quality difference between the two modes.

• The DSR500/570 record in DVCam mode only – but the superior quality results are down to the camera not the recording mode.

• The DSR450 is switchable between DVCam and DV SP modes and either mode produces the same quality results.

• JVC & Panasonic professional products record miniDV only

Using miniDV tapes and recording in DV SP mode represents an 80% saving over using DVCam stock and recording in DVCam mode.

So unless there is a very specific reason, which should be fully explained, we recommend that:

• Switchable cameras are always used in DV SP mode as opposed to DVCam mode

• Mini DV tapes are always used instead of DVCam tapes

Myth 2 - Using the Z1 in HDV mode produces higher quality results for SD delivery.

• Only if you are using the very best down-converters with settings according to BBC test results. This is not practical or cost effective – no BBC production has done this

• Downside of HDV – longer dropout – by 50% - example

• Same argument applies for stock – no need to use HD master tape.

The BBC has 3 major productions shooting HDV (2000 hours) and are all using mini DV stock


Myth 3 – The Z1 is not a progressive camera

• Cineframe 25 is 100% good quality and mimics film motion exactly when the camera is in SD mode

• In HDV mode, there is a reduction in vertical resolution (1080 down to 540).

Many SD film looks used for BBC output reduce from 576 down to 288 and are considered acceptable. Lowering the sharpness to 7 or 8 helps.


Myth 4 – The DSR 450 or V1 can be used to shoot 25p for TV output

• These cameras have excessive vertical resolution and ‘twitter’ excessively.

• We told Sony on the 450 but they have repeated the mistake for the V1.

There is a fix we have developed in post production to cure this fault.


Myth 5 - The Z1 performs badly in low light.

• It is true that the Z1 is less sensitive in low light than the PD170 – by about 2 f-stops.

• Although the recorded picture is darker, it is virtually grainless and can be graded up very effectively. Graded Z1 = PD150/170
• 1/12 shutter trick

• The main difficulty is that it can be hard to see what you’re shooting in very low light.

Myth 6 - Manual sound level is always best

• Depends on the camera – PD150/170 work best in AGC ON – using the switch (-20db) and a special -10dB attenuating cable (Visual Impact) to give you a 4 stage level control system with a great limiter.

• ALC in Panasonic cameras is just a limiter – leave on and still use manual controls. Same with JVC HD100 – Auto ON is a limiter.

• Z1: use manual with Limiter ON


Myth 7 - You can use radio mics anywhere in the world.

• Each country allows use of radio mics (and other audio equipment) within a certain frequency range.

• These frequency ranges vary from one country to another

• Radio mics hired in the UK will not necessarily operate on the appropriate frequency for other countries. They will either suffer interference from local TV stations, or be at risk of interfering with emergency services

• Sennheiser website is useful –

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/icmeng.nsf/root/products_wireless-systemsfrequency-check



Myth 8 - Separate lenses always offer better picture quality and range of angles

• Depends on the camera – for 2/3” cameras this is usually true.

• Flare and chromatic aberrations are better on the Z1 and HVX200 than most sub £2000 separate lenses

• The wide end is no wider on the Canon and JVC cameras than the Z1 and HVX200


MacPro 2.66G 3GB RAM 1.5G Internal Raid Mac OS X (10.4.9) also Win XP

From what I have read the problems with dropouts occur when changing between tape stock that has a 'wet' emulsion and a 'dry' one.

The only drop outs I have had using MiniDV tapes was in changing from sony to panasonic stock and I think it was the variation in tape 'wetness' that was the problem.

My recomendation would be to only buy one type of tape and if you change over do not do it before a big job, shoot some footage to make sure the dropout thing doesn't occur. And keep a head cleaner close by.

MiniDV tapes work great.


2x 2.66 GHz Dual-Core Intel Mac OS X (10.4.9) 2gb Ram, FCP 5.1.4, Sony A1p

I agree with only using one brand of tape. I have been using Sony mini DV stock for over five years and I believe it is best to stick with what works. I have shoot over 400 Sony DVM60PRL Premium tapes that used to cost nearly as much as the HDV masters do now without any issues. If you shoot with a Sony camera I recommend these tapes. BTW these tapes are now under 3 dollars each online. The end is near for tape.
Good Luck
Z1&V1user

Hi Dave,
Interesting thread you have going here. I cut at a company that used D-Beta tapes instead of HDCAM tapes on shoot, and we never saw anything wrong UNTIL a few months ago. The night footage had a weird line down the one-third almost at 4:3 cutoff, and almost like a gamma correction (lightness/brightness for that one-third). Sony was called in and we went through various tests to see if it was the tapestock, lenses or camera - which it wasn't because there were two of them shooting. I can tell you that now...every single shoot tape is on HDCAM and we have had no problems.

Bottom line: fantastic cost saving feature of jimmying the tapes has now cost a whole heck of a lot more to fix in post.

Dave: I have tried using both the Sony HDV tapes, and Sony Premium tapes, with my Sony FX1, and I honestly think I got LESS dropouts with the Premium stuff. So, seeing no advantage to using the more expensive HDV tapes, I now use only Premium tapes, which are around $2.50 per tape these days.

DVCAM is recorded at a faster speed so regardless of whether you use minidv stock or DVCAM stock, DVCAM will be more robust and a minor flaw in the oxide is less likely to cause a dropout that error correction won't be able to fix. Makes sense to me and I don't see anything in this summary that addresses this. Yes you have less recording time per tape, but I always master to DVCAM rather than minidv for this reason.