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  • capaho Level 4 Level 4 (3,650 points)
    Thanks for all the references. If you feel the Acer AL2016W is a perfect example of what the 20" iMac display should be, I'll see if I can get my hands on one and do a side-by-side compariosn with my iMac.

    "It is my belief that nearly any invented quotation, played with confidence, stands a good chance to deceive."
    \- Mark Twain
  • capaho Level 4 Level 4 (3,650 points)
    So, you're tellin' us you couldn't find one TN panel in all of TFTcentral?


    No, that isn't what I said.

    "Evil is the product of the ability of humans to make abstract that which is concrete."
    \- Jean-Paul Sartre
  • Kevin Horn Level 4 Level 4 (1,825 points)
    Whether or not the older iMacs had a better screen seems like a matter of opinion, to me.


    It's not a matter of opinion it's a matter of cold and absolute fact. If someone likes the worse screen better than the good one that is a matter of opinion, you know what is born every minute, right?.

    I've never seen the older screen, but I've heard from people on this thread that the new iMac's screen has much more vibrant colors, and is much brighter; and that's by some of the same people that complain about the gradient. I personally value the colors and brightness, and I prefer the glossy screen as well, so I don't see the older screens as being better.


    I'm sure the Apple meeting where they decided to go for a cheap TN 6-bit screen over the high quality 8-bit screens they used to have went something like this:

    "Listen, all we have to do is put a shiny gloss on it and the rubes will like it even better. Eye candy is far more important than quality and our profit margin will increase dramatically."

    Judging by the comments here and by Apple's record sales they were completely right and proved Mencken's old saying:

    No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.
    People can easily be persuaded to accept the most inferior ideas or useless products.

    H. L. Mencken
  • capaho Level 4 Level 4 (3,650 points)
    I'm sure the Apple meeting where they decided to go for a cheap TN 6-bit screen over the high quality 8-bit screens they used to have went something like this....


    I'm sure it was a marketing decision, as such things usually are, as it also was with the 17" iMacs. It's an old story in business, technical and artistic people almost never like the business decisions that come from management, but the reality of business is that companies have to be profitable.

    The decision to put TN panels in 20" iMacs was almost certainly a matter of production and logistical costs in relation to target market price as calculated by those who calculate such things. The reality of the computer market is that consumers are more likely to skimp on the graphics and pay more attention to system power. I know this is irksome for computer graphics professionals, especially those who are experienced Mac users, but it's the reality of the way the business works.

    And, despite the ill-mannered bluster that too frequently manifests itself in these forums, the TN panels in the 20" aluminum iMacs are not significantly different from any other TN panels. Anyone who says otherwise is simply not being honest. A TN panel is simply not capable of producing the same level of quality as an S-IPS panel. That should be an easy point to understand for anyone who understands the technical differences between the two.

    The rest, as they say, is just business.
  • The Looby Level 4 Level 4 (1,285 points)
    capaho wrote:

    Thanks for all the references.


    My apologies for initially neglecting to suggest acer.com as a source for Acer specs.

    If you feel the Acer AL2016W is a perfect example of what the 20" iMac display
    should be, I'll see if I can get my hands on one and do a side-by-side compariosn
    with my iMac.


    OK, if you feel that parity with the dirt-cheapest Wal*Mart econo-model is a suitably
    ambitious goal for Stevie's *"even better ... more professional ... upgraded"* Wonder,
    be my guest.

    Looby
  • capaho Level 4 Level 4 (3,650 points)
    OK, if you feel that parity with the dirt-cheapest Wal*Mart econo-model is a suitably ambitious goal for Stevie's "even better ... more professional ... upgraded" Wonder, be my guest.


    You are the one who cited the Acer display as an example of a display with a TN panel that is TC'03 certified and you are the one who keeps saying that the lack of TC'03 certification for the 20" aluminum iMac display is significant.

    I want to do a side-by-side comparison of my 20" aluminum iMac with a display that has both a TN panel and TC'03 certification as a matter of curiosity. I don't think it is a significant issue, but I want to see for myself rather than just speculate. If you have a recommendation for a display that you believe would be more suitable for such a comparison, please let me know what it is.

    "People's minds are changed through observation and not through argument."
    \- Will Rogers
  • The Looby Level 4 Level 4 (1,285 points)
    capaho wrote:

    You are the one who cited the Acer display as an example of a
    display with a TN panel that is TC'03 certified ...


    Nice try. I gave you a link to literally HUNDREDS of examples of displays
    matching that description. Take your pick -- or better yet, try a dozen.

    ...film at 11:00 ?

    Looby
  • capaho Level 4 Level 4 (3,650 points)
    Nice try. I gave you a link to literally HUNDREDS of examples of displays matching that description. Take your pick -- or better yet, try a dozen.


    There are so many things I could say in response, but, since you missed the point again, I'll get straight to it. I want you to recommend a TC'03 certified TN panel that represents the level of quality that you believe Apple should have supplied in changing the 20" iMac to a TN panel display.

    One of the Dell displays I used in my previous side-by-side comparison was listed as certified but had the gradient effect and looked unimpressive sitting next to the iMac. For my next comparison, I want to use a TC'03 certified TN panel display that you have certified as worthy of such a comparison.

    "An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
    \- Will Rogers
  • The Looby Level 4 Level 4 (1,285 points)
    capaho wrote:

    For my next comparison, I want to use a TC'03 certified TN panel display
    that you have certified as worthy of such a comparison.


    Evidence-free "comparisons" are of precisely zero value.

    ...talk is cheap, post a photo,

    Looby
  • capaho Level 4 Level 4 (3,650 points)
    ...talk is cheap, post a photo,


    As I suspected. Talk is very cheap. Be a doer, not a talker, and do your own comparison. Then, hopefully, you will understand.

    "Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking."
    \- Albert Einstein
  • nout72 Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)
    The more I use my iMac the more I like it.

    The so-called narrow viewing angle for instance isn't that narrow at all.
    My brother had bought a 24 inch Dell cinema monitor for his Windows PC. (600 euro)
    Concerning the contrast and brightness when watching in extreme angles, the Dell did a better job, but the colors did actually shift a lot more and I am not making this up.

    (What is interesting: when watching from extreme angles the Dell screen had a tendency to darken from below, the lower part became darker than the upper-part.
    My iMac, though not as good in difficult viewing angles, is more cohesive - is that why they made the lower part of the screen brighter

    I read the advantage TN panels have over VA and IPS panels is their faster response time.
    And I've seen it 'live': with games the Dell had some trouble with 'ghosting' - leaving artifacts behind (don't know how to describe it)
    With my iMac's cheap TN panel I don't have this weird aliasing effect.

    Another advantage my LCD screen has over the technically superiour Dell, is the gloss finnish.
    I am starting to appreciate it more and more.
    Colors of pictures are so deep and saturated, I love it.
    I played Miyazaki's "Spirited Away" and I just knew my LCD screen's gradient and narrow viewing angle no longer are an issue to me
  • Demnoir Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    People that use facts to disagree with you are not "ranting", "ill-mannered" or "dishonest".

    You are simply not familiar with the state of TN displays. Look at any cheap display such as an Acer. It does not have any gradient, same with other manufacturers. I know, I am surrounded by these displays all day.

    This is easy for anybody to verify. Simply go to a store and have a look.

    Furthermore, I would think that after your attempt to post a screen capture as evidence that the gradient does not exist, you would be to embarrassed to post further on this topic.
  • AceDew Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Kevin Horn wrote:
    Whether or not the older iMacs had a better screen seems like a matter of opinion, to me.


    It's not a matter of opinion it's a matter of cold and absolute fact.


    What fact?

    I don't see any facts in your post, all I see is you and your juvenile attitude calling me an idiot, a rube, and unintelligent, claiming the iMac is a useless product. All of which is simply spouting your opinion on the matter. I don't see any facts about the new display vs the old one. Even if you had posted facts, who cares? I have an S-PVA and a S-IPS at home and work, and I like my iMac screen better.

    I'm sure the Apple meeting where they decided to go for a cheap TN 6-bit screen over the high quality 8-bit screens they used to have went something like this:

    "Listen, all we have to do is put a shiny gloss on it and the rubes will like it even better. Eye candy is far more important than quality and our profit margin will increase dramatically."

    Judging by the comments here and by Apple's record sales they were completely right and proved Mencken's old saying:

    No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.
    People can easily be persuaded to accept the most inferior ideas or useless products.


    Ok, you are right, and *everybody else* is wrong. Apple is stupid for catering to the masses, and the masses are mindless drones that buy something because Apple told them to, not because it's a good product. Go post it for your blog-readers, it's a useless post here that doesn't get us anywhere.
  • capaho Level 4 Level 4 (3,650 points)
    People that use facts to disagree with you are not "ranting", "ill-mannered" or "dishonest".


    I'm not complaining about people who are using facts, I'm complaining about people who are ranting, ill-mannered or dishonest.

    You are simply not familiar with the state of TN displays. Look at any cheap display such as an Acer. It does not have any gradient, same with other manufacturers. I know, I am surrounded by these displays all day


    I have yet to see a TN display that doesn't have the gradient effect. Read the technical documentation, it's a common characteristic.

    This is easy for anybody to verify. Simply go to a store and have a look.


    That's exactly the advice I've been giving.

    Furthermore, I would think that after your attempt to post a screen capture as evidence that the gradient does not exist, you would be to embarrassed to post further on this topic.


    I guess you didn't read any of my follow-up comments about that, either. In any case, if you are a believer in photos, how about posting some of the gradient-free TN panels that surround you.
  • nout72 Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)
    +You are simply not familiar with the state of TN displays. Look at any cheap display such as an Acer. It does not have any gradient, same with other manufacturers. I know, I am surrounded by these displays all day.+

    At my work we use Eizo Flexscan S1911SH-BK LCD screens.
    True the gradient isn't that obvious and the viewing angle is better but still there definitely is some gradient and in fact all over the screen: the bottom of the screen is brighter and the same around the edges, both left and right.
    Colors are less coherent, definitely more shifts all over the screen and I mean when I sit right in front of it watching the screen from an ideal viewing angle.
    I honestly think with the right calibration the colors of the new alu iMac are excellent.

    For office work the Eizo is superiour, that's a fact.
    The matt screen is more quiet to look at, not as bright as the iMac's.