User profile for user: ottocrat
ottocrat Author
User level: Level 1
86 points

Asian font rendering problem

I want to use Devanagari (the standard Hindi font). The font (Devanagari MT, a true-type font) is installed but the OS does not seem to be able to render it (or is this up to individual applications?). None of my browsers render the font (I don't have this problem in Windows). The font is available to me in other applications (Word, Pages, Photoshop, etc) but will not render on screen or in print. It is switched on in Font Book (where it renders correctly on screen), and when I validate the font it is passed as safe to use.

I'm not sure where I'm going wrong. Can anyone help?

(Using 10.4.10, but I've had this problem since Panther on three separate Macs.)

15" MBP, 2ghz, 2gb RAM; Mac Mini, 1.4ghz, 1gb RAM, Mac OS X (10.4.10)

Posted on Aug 25, 2007 3:23 PM

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17 replies
User profile for user: Tom Gewecke
Tom Gewecke
User level: Level 10
122,252 points

Aug 25, 2007 5:29 PM in response to ottocrat

To input Devanagari, you must activate the keyboard layout for it in system prefs/international/input menu (plus check the box for "show input menu in Finder.") Then you can select Devanagari in the "flag" menu at the top right of the finder and type away in TextEdit, Pages, Mail, Safari, etc. MS and Adobe products for Mac do not support Devanagari.

You should have no problem reading Unicode Devanagari websites with Safari. For example:

http://devanaagarii.net/hi/

Can you see that OK?

However many websites in this language use non-standard encodings and fonts which you would have to download somewhere first.

See this note for more info. Just ask if you have further questions.

http://homepage.mac.com/thgewecke/TypingDevanagari.html
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User profile for user: ottocrat
ottocrat Author
User level: Level 1
86 points

Sep 10, 2007 8:16 AM in response to Tom Gewecke

Hi Tom, thanks for the help. That's very useful. Indeed, Devanagari will render in Safari (and Font Book) but nowhere else (whether Apple apps such as Text Edit or Firefox or Adobe apps).

Your answer is by far the most useful I've come across so far (though a little depressing as I was hoping to use Devanagari in Photoshop).

In the meantime, just to keep the thread up-to-date in case others have had the same problem, I have had a long discussion on this issue with Apple Care, being passed up the line to a fonts specialist, and he seems to think this is a system-wide bug. He referred it to engineering with a promise to let me know what they plan to do about it.
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User profile for user: mattn
mattn
User level: Level 2
422 points

Sep 10, 2007 9:04 AM in response to ottocrat

ottocrat wrote:
In the meantime, just to keep the thread up-to-date in case others have had the same problem, I have had a long discussion on this issue with Apple Care, being passed up the line to a fonts specialist, and he seems to think this is a system-wide bug.


But since others can type and read Devanagari in TextEdit just fine, it isn't clear why one wouldn't think this problem is confined to your machine. And in that case, surely it should be possible to clear up the problem on your machine.
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User profile for user: Tom Gewecke
Tom Gewecke
User level: Level 10
122,252 points

Sep 10, 2007 9:23 AM in response to ottocrat

Devanagari will render in Safari (and Font Book) but nowhere else (whether Apple apps such as Text Edit or Firefox or Adobe apps).


I've not heard of anyone having problems getting Devanagari to display in general in Text Edit or Mail or Pages or any modern Apple app. If you are, then something is not right with your machine. Feel free to email me with details if you like (tom at bluesky dot org). I would certainly be curious as to what Apple Care thought was a bug (unless these are the same things mentioned at the bottom of my note in the Bugs section).

Firefox cannot render Devanagari unless you install a Windows font for this script, and then I think the rendering will still not be correct.
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User profile for user: Tom Gewecke
Tom Gewecke
User level: Level 10
122,252 points

Sep 10, 2007 10:12 AM in response to mattn

Devanagari also works fine on my machine in third-party Unicode-savvy word-processing apps such as Mellel


Although characters will display, Mellel can't actually do Devanagari -- the vowels are not ordered correctly and conjuncts don't work (basically the same problems as MS and Adobe). As in the "wrong" item here:

http://homepage.mac.com/thgewecke/indicprobs.jpg
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User profile for user: ottocrat
ottocrat Author
User level: Level 1
86 points

Sep 10, 2007 11:16 AM in response to mattn

mattn wrote:
But since others can type and read Devanagari in TextEdit just fine, it isn't clear why one wouldn't think this problem is confined to your machine. And in that case, surely it should be possible to clear up the problem on your machine.



I'm simply reporting that the Apple staff I spoke to on this issue all found that they had the same problem that I was experiencing: Devanagari would not render on their machines in anything other than Font Book and Safari.

But if you're telling me that it will render for you then I'm at a loss to explain what's happening.

Incidentally I have found a workaround of sorts - there are a few Devanagari fonts out there which do seem to render OK across the whole of OSX including third party apps. Kiran for example, though it's not very easy on the eye.

further edit - and I should add that Kiran (and others) did form correct conjuncts also in Photoshop (as far as my admittedly limited knowledge of Hindi/devanagari goes).

Message was edited twice by: ottocrat
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User profile for user: Tom Gewecke
Tom Gewecke
User level: Level 10
122,252 points

Sep 10, 2007 11:36 AM in response to ottocrat

I have found a workaround of sorts - there are a few Devanagari fonts out there which do seem to render OK across the whole of OSX including third party apps. Kiran for example, though it's not very easy on the eye.


It sounds like you may be talking about non-Uncode fonts. Unless you are doing work only for local printing, I would recommend you use Unicode, which is the international standard for such scripts. Otherwise anyone you send your text to must have the exact same custom font you are using selected in order to display things correctly, and things like email and webpages are very difficult. Non-Unicode Devanagari should soon be obsolete, at least for internet data exchange.

With respect to standard Unicode Devanagari, the only font you can use in OS X and most apps for correct display is Devanagari MT. Windows fonts will not work, except in the app OpenOffice.

It is very puzzling that you would not be able to input Devanagari into TextEdit using the keyboard layout and fonts provided by Apple with OS X. Could you send me a screenshot of what is happening when you try that?
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User profile for user: ottocrat
ottocrat Author
User level: Level 1
86 points

Sep 10, 2007 11:44 AM in response to Tom Gewecke

Tom Gewecke wrote:
It sounds like you may be talking about non-Uncode fonts. Unless you are doing work only for local printing, I would recommend you use Unicode, which is the international standard for such scripts. Otherwise anyone you send your text to must have the exact same custom font you are using selected in order to display things correctly, and things like email and webpages are very difficult. Non-Unicode Devanagari should soon be obsolete, at least for internet data exchange.

With respect to standard Unicode Devanagari, the only font you can use in OS X and most apps for correct display is Devanagari MT. Windows fonts will not work, except in the app OpenOffice.

It is very puzzling that you would not be able to input Devanagari into TextEdit using the keyboard layout and fonts provided by Apple with OS X. Could you send me a screenshot of what is happening when you try that?


Tom, your point is well taken about Unicode fonts, which is why I'd really like to get Devanagari MT working as it should. But in the meantime this workaround suits my immediate purpose which is to work on an image in Photoshop incorporating some Hindi words written in Devanagari.

I'd be happy to send you some screenshots (see my e-mail) - I can't do so right this second as I'm at the office and away from my Mac but I'll gladly do so this evening. All I'm seeing in Text Edit is the Roman script equivalent of my keyboard input. In other apps I get the empty rectangles.
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User profile for user: ottocrat
ottocrat Author
User level: Level 1
86 points

Sep 10, 2007 4:36 PM in response to Tom Gewecke

Tom, thanks a million, the problem is now solved: all I had to do was select Devanagari as the input source from the menu bar!

I feel a little foolish but on the other hand I must say that the solution is thoroughly counter-intuitive! In Text Edit, for example, as long as I have a non-Devanagari keyboard input source selected then the application will not render devanagari text, regardless of which font I select from the font browser. However, once I do choose Devanagari from the input source menu, then anything I type will be in Devanagari, even if I select Wingdings!

I should also add that choosing Devanagari as the input source will allow devanagari to be rendered also in third party applications, including Firefox and (yay!) Adobe CS3!

So, problem solved, Tom Gewecke 1 Apple Care 0, and I'm a very happy camper. धानयवाद!

Message was edited by: ottocrat
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Asian font rendering problem

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